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  • Vape or trickle?

  • General Q&A, Bee chat and only Bee chat please
General Q&A, Bee chat and only Bee chat please
 #5269  by Alfred
 01 Dec 2019, 17:26
I tried Maqs in late summer-a bit brutal....
I want to give crystals a go this time instead.
What's the forums favourite?
Pros/cons of either route?
Has anyone squirted a dose into the eyes or set a bracecomb alight with the subliminator.

Can anyone provide justification of pricing difference between oxy and the legally branded packaging?
 #5271  by Patrick
 01 Dec 2019, 17:54
Lock and load Alfred! There are advocates of both on here so sure you will get plenty of experienced views. I only know what I have read about vaping so speak with zero personal experience to date.

For me .. differences are cost and safety. Costs= Trickle is small amount of oxalic and a plastic syringe. Vape = vape kit, battery and most important, appropriate and adequate respirator.

Safety - trickle negligible safety issues used sensibly vape with no respirator potentially serious consequences.

Efficacy = reportedly better with vape, but some report individual hives requiring repeat dosages which is interesting. Trickle, possibly lower efficacy but still seems adequate in my experience.

For me a minor but significant issue is all my entrances are small and built in so many sublimators would have to be used under the mesh floor and possibly less targeted as a result.

For those with lots of hives all significant cost purchases becomes cheaper per hive.

Regards your final point - only reason I can think is that to register anything as a medicine costs a load but you can be sure that what you get is suitable for the use you are intending it for. Same as anything “Food Grade” I suppose.

If you buy pure honey, you can expect to get pure honey, not sugar syrup, for random example 8-)
 #5273  by Japey Edge
 01 Dec 2019, 19:37
I haven't done either, I have API-bioxal pouches and I will be trickling this year, but I'm under the impression that sublimating is much more effective and you can do it multiple times while you can only trickle once.

For me it's the kit needed for sublimating that's putting me off. Too scared for the moment. Maybe next year.
 #5274  by NigelP
 01 Dec 2019, 19:50
I don't think there is a definitive answer. Too many "depends".
One fact is trickling is only really effective when no brood is present whereas vaping can be conducted several times. Evidence suggests that bees subjected to multiple trickles shortens their lives as they ingest the acidic syrup.

Another issue is time take to vape. The cheaper pan types that either need adaptions to fit under open mesh floors or need solid floors with entrance take about 10 minute per hive. Not an issue if you only have 3 or 4 hives...but major time concern when above 10. Where you need an active vaporiser like a sublimox ; expensive...but quick ....30 seconds per hive and can be vaped through small entrance. Plus cost of safety equipment like organic acid and particle vapour filters.
I have 10+hives and use a sublimox. It's already paid for itself in saved miticide strips etc. I can 't use apivar as too cold after we get back from the heather.
Major legal problem is Apibioxal is contaminated with silica gel and glucose which leave a sticky hard to remove residue after vaping where as cheap as chips wood cleaner doesn't....
 #5277  by Alfred
 02 Dec 2019, 09:25
So when is it possible to trickle-? at the moment this method suits me as I already have a sheep drench gun and the hives reduced entrances.
All I'd need is a bag of approved crystal.
Surely there must be some brood present all the time?
 #5278  by NigelP
 02 Dec 2019, 09:38
Now is a good time Arthur. They usually start brood rearing shortly after the winter solstice, as day length increases. The cluster temperature then shoots up to 34C...something you would notice if you had a temp sensor in a hive.
I've vaped my garden hives lasty week and am waiting for the weather to warm up a bit before vaping my out apiary hives. For trickling it's better if they are cold clustered not moving about.
 #5279  by Patrick
 02 Dec 2019, 10:05
Possibly depending on where you are, the broodless period may or may not happen. In my neck of the woods I suspect it is never entirely brood free. There are some who advocate going through and uncapping any sealed brood found before trickling but I never have.

Maybe worth mentioning to still wear a bee suit and take your lit smoker. They may or may not be clustered but having just lifted off the crownboard is no time to be wishing you had one on. A sting from a winter bee always seems more painful. Perhaps venom ripens in an older bee like a fine wine? 😁
 #5281  by AndrewLD
 02 Dec 2019, 12:02
I guess that there are a lot of people who use alternative products to the authorised, tested veterinary medicines?
It would never occur to me to do that and it doesn't seem a good idea.
Oxalic acid when vapourised crystalises into oxalic crystals in the lungs, not a good thing to have happen so when Patrick says an appropriate and adequate respirator he is talking about a real respirator. I'd use a full face one because I wouldn't want it in my eyes.
The 3M chemical chart indicates a type A filter cartridge Brown Band for oxalic acid and oxalic acid dihydrate(organic gases and vapours) married with a Particulate filter. Some would argue for a Type E organic vapour/acid gas catridge (Yellow Band) married to a particulate pre-filter but I am going on the 3M specific filter for the named chemical. You can play safe with a combination filter incorporating both filter colours. BUT THIS FOR YOU TO CHECK.
I cannot use oxalic acid vapour because the hives are too close to a public right of way that is downwind of the hives.
 #5282  by NigelP
 02 Dec 2019, 13:31
Total agreement on respirators with vaporised OA, particularly important if using an active/pressurised system like a sublimox. You simply cannot avoid the vapour at some point. But you can't breath it it's I found out when my mask wasn't done up properly....not some thing I'd advise trying.
I use a combination of an organic acid vapour filter and P3 particulate filter and this works fine.
The micro-crystals form almost instantly as the temperature lowers and this is what a lot of the vapour is, this and water vapour caused by driving off the di-hyrate on your oxalic acid di-hydrate in your apibioxal. The gunge left behind is the glucose and silica gel.
 #5283  by Alfred
 02 Dec 2019, 15:06
I got an accidental snoutful of fumes off the maqs-that was enough.
Can you mix and match vaping and trickling?
Im thinking of trickle for the now,as I only have to get the crystals-Im hoping the drench gun will allow a quicker application and get the lid back on quick.
I can use the tractor battery later in the year to power a wand,when the wraps are off and the entrances are wider

I cant remember where but Im sure Ive seen a maverick device powered by a gas canister?

Kit and smoke are an 'always' with my bunch,Patrick,no matter how small the job is.
Its well past just being unlucky,this lot are highly skilled antagonists.
I got the Mrs planting bulbs in front of the hives last month-raven haired she is and a black jumper on -not bothered
I bring her a cuppa and get walloped within minutes.