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  • Beginners forum, ask beekeeping related questions and get help from other experienced beekeepers. Please use the Search Feature please to avoid duplicated threads
Beginners forum, ask beekeeping related questions and get help from other experienced beekeepers. Please use the Search Feature please to avoid duplicated threads
 #11981  by Alfred
 19 Sep 2021, 15:38
You will certainly gain thoughts and advice to adapt to your circumstaces from the previous contributions to this thread and also in the Autumn feeding Debate thread .
I would say the colonies are unfortunately in each others boxes.
You may have to kingspan-down the 1412 or put them in a nuc.
Some colonies will never need giant brood boxes and the standard National is perfectly proportioned for them so think long and hard before going mad on oh so trendy 1412.
Bought that tshirt. ;)
Standard boxes can still go double brood which ties in conveniently with the joy of swarm management waiting around the corner.
Like a DFS sale.
 #11982  by NigelP
 19 Sep 2021, 17:00
Alfred makes a good point....be very careful before going to 14x12. They are a very inflexible system particularly when it comes to swarm control and often beekeepers end up with small colonies unable to take advantage of all that room. If it's your first season there is a tendency to think you have a lot of bees, when what you need to see is someone else's big colony with lots of bees for comparison.
Double brood is far more flexible IMHO. It allows you to adjust the "nest" size as the bees require it and you can give more (or less) room at appropriate times. It's also great for swarm control as you already have 2 boxes of bees to move around/stack or whatever. Try doing a snelgrove with 2 x 14x12 brood boxes.....
The usual argument will pop up about inspections in double brood taking longer, which is bunkum....unless you insist on examining every single frame in both boxes at every inspection.
For what it's worth my usual inspections are to check 3 or 4 frames of brood in the top box, if all okay, i'e eggs/larvae etc and no queen cells.... job done. No need to go any further or through the bottom box. However, if you find queen cells then it will definitely take a little longer to sort two boxes out....a minor inconvenience in the grand scheme of things.
 #11984  by Steve 1972
 19 Sep 2021, 22:50
After some advise a good While back I will qoute a very good phrase from a renowned Beekeeper who is recently no longer with us..14 x 12 is a abomination..
 #11987  by MickBBKA
 20 Sep 2021, 01:35
Its far easier to go double brood on nationals than find out your 14x12 is too small. The plus is you will have lots of drawn frames even if they don't fill them with brood. I often see other keepers 14x12 frames which never seem to get drawn out fully and look a waste of foundation. I also think they are unwieldy imho. Main thing is to find what suits your bees. I used to go brood & half until I figured out what a big colony looked like and was probably holding some colonies back. I think its best to give them lots of space April to end of June in my location, worst is they will fill it with honey. :D
 #11993  by Crazyhorse
 21 Sep 2021, 09:49
Does it make any difference that these are WBC hives?
I thought 14x12 would make it more easy to manage? Guess that’s a learning error!

Ok so aside the obvious mistake thinking big is better for them.
It’s to late in the season to change. (Right)?

Clearer board is on the super to put underneath the standard brood box in winter. 7 frames of sealed honey plus what ever is in the brood looks to be 3 full frames of stores. (So tight I can’t get them out)

Smaller colony on 14x12 has a good mixture of brood and stores across 5-6 frames.. they are still drawing comb as well.

I tried different smoke Material today instead of cardboard I used leaf and birch bark. Seemed to make them less angry..
 #11994  by Alfred
 21 Sep 2021, 12:32
If you have some drawn frames and a good spell of really nice weather you could get away with changing them but its stressful for them and if you squish or spook the queen you will be in trouble at this time of the year so its best to wait.
Theres a few other jobs to attend to before winter in any case.
Like destroying the destructor

Look at dummying down with insulation for this year if they arent impressed with the surplus capacity -they reaaly dont need to be wasting energy heating dead space.

1412 box can be readily offloaded to some unsuspecting mug in springtime.... ;)

As far a smoker material goes ,anything that disrupts alarm pheromone circulating will work -even a drop of essential oil on your gloves

Its easy to get focussed on the job in hand and fail to spot that one bee on the corner with its backside in the air pumping panic into the nest
A quick puff there and then can make all the difference.
 #11995  by AdamD
 21 Sep 2021, 15:28
I wouldn't suggest moving bees onto different frames at this time of year - that's a lot of work to do (for the bees). Some people like 14 x 12's, so don't be put off by some views - beekeeping is a lot of trial and even more error, for all of us, so find out what works for you and your bees. We keep on learning.
 #11999  by Crazyhorse
 23 Sep 2021, 07:59
1412 box can be readily offloaded to some unsuspecting mug in springtime....
Thanks for that!
Theres a few other jobs to attend to before winter in any case.
Like destroying the destructor
Some people tell me to leave it until a cold winter morning? I’m not seeing any evidence of them?
beekeeping is a lot of trial and even more error, for all of us, so find out what works for you and your bees. We keep on learning.
I’ve got a relative that’s had bees 70yrs and he keeps saying everyday they will surprise you! Learn by your mistakes! Then changes the subject or hangs up! ;)

Appreciate the tips. Think I’ll stay with the 1412 over winter and add some celotex boards inside. I’ll move the frames to the centre.

As for the naughty hive I’ll stick there super underneath maybe next week.
 #12004  by NigelP
 23 Sep 2021, 17:03
Crazyhorse wrote:
23 Sep 2021, 07:59
Some people tell me to leave it until a cold winter morning? I’m not seeing any evidence of them?
In what way are you not seeing any evidence of them?
Adding Apitraz strips on mine has seen some hives (not all) with huge drops and no obvious previous signs of varroa like lots on varroa board/ deformed wings etc.
Personally I treat late summer/autumn as I want my winter bees to be fighting fit and know the little burgers will be hiding away somehow.
But its better to treat at sometime each year than not to treat at all IMHO.
 #12006  by Alfred
 23 Sep 2021, 19:16
Crazyhorse wrote:
23 Sep 2021, 07:59

Some people tell me to leave it until a cold winter morning? I’m not seeing any evidence of them
Withot good reason I cannot confess to ever seeing one myself but I know damn well theyre there.
Many of us treats late summer the we do it again late autumn.
Theres a blog called The Apiarist which is very helpful- incisive without being caustic.
Like Nigel says just treat rather than not as many many problems can be traced back (even indirectly) to mites.
It need not be expensive or involved either ;)