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Queen breeding specialism discussion forum.
 #8744  by huntsman.
 04 Sep 2020, 18:49
Chrisbarlow, sorry but you got what I said very wrong.

I said 'early' not 'late' supersedure.

'Most' supersedure is late in the year and this is generally accepted by beekeepers. But for someone to buy an expensive travelled queen and have her superseded in the spring of her first year is very wrong, should it happen.

This can be very hard on a novice beekeeper , as they will lose a few weeks of colony expansion. Not a nice introduction to beekeeping IMO.

Unless they have a very good mentor they will not even notice the problem and will not complain to the supplier.
 #8745  by NigelP
 04 Sep 2020, 19:19
I've noticed a tendency of nucs/hives with newly introduced queens to have their "bees" draw queen cells, which looks like supersedure. Having knocked them all down (numerous times) and non being drawn again
I figure it's an attempt by original bees to not have new genetics imposed on them...despite that they are actually drawing queen cells on their new queens eggs. Once all the offspring are from original queen it disappears, but something to watch out for.
 #8746  by huntsman.
 04 Sep 2020, 19:42
Nigel, interesting point.

Supercedure cells are pretty much the same as emergency cells.

Could it be that the newly introduced queen was weak in pheremones and the colony still considered itself queenless?
 #8747  by Chrisbarlow
 04 Sep 2020, 21:11
huntsman. wrote:
04 Sep 2020, 18:49
I said 'early' not 'late' supersedure.

'Most' supersedure is late in the year and this is generally accepted by beekeepers. But for someone to buy an expensive travelled queen and have her superseded in the spring of her first year is very wrong, should it happen.

This can be very hard on a novice beekeeper , as they will lose a few weeks of colony expansion. Not a nice introduction to beekeeping IMO.

Unless they have a very good mentor they will not even notice the problem and will not complain to the supplier.
By early I believed you meant soon after introduction. In that case I would say a queen that survives winter and is then superceded "early" in the following year is just one of those things and can happen with any new queen regardless of when she was mated the previous year. As for being very wrong, its an indicator about the state of the colony, its more about reading the colony and understanding the language as opposed to being right or wrong.

As for making an assumption the supercedure is down to a poorly mated queen, to start with, the bees are telling you the bee keeper that they don't like that queen, they are not telling you why they don't like the queen.

if it were a beginner bee keeper or novice bee keeper and the bees were superceding the queen in Spring, the first consideration for me would be, has the new bee keeper maimed the queen themselves during manipulations or a botched attempt at marking the queen.

In my view though beginners don't buy queens alone by post because as beginner bee keepers they don't have colonies to put them in to. Beginners buy nucs. However novice bee keepers do and its generally when they've killed their own queen or lost their own queen in a swarm.

I think if new bee keepers or novice bee keepers do have a good mentor. if that mentor is letting them buy queens in and not helping them raise new queens themselves, I suspect they aren't that good.
 #8750  by huntsman.
 04 Sep 2020, 22:28
Crisbarlow; 'As for making an assumption the supercedure is down to a poorly mated queen,'

I never said that. There are many reasons for supercedure.

Main one is an old and failing queen. However a poorly mated queen will be quickly replaced as her sperm deminishes.

My point applies to nucs being supplied with such queens as much as to a travelled queen.

An injured or damaged queen due to poor manipulation will not be replaced by a superceded queen but rather an emergency one.
 #8751  by Chrisbarlow
 04 Sep 2020, 23:10
huntsman. wrote:
03 Sep 2020, 23:23
Would you not consider that even if the queens managed to mate this late in the year, they don't mate well and will lead to early supersedure?
huntsman. wrote:
04 Sep 2020, 22:28
Crisbarlow; 'As for making an assumption the supercedure is down to a poorly mated queen,'

I never said that. There are many reasons for supercedure.
Of course there are many reasons, you appeared to imply with late season mating that it was.
huntsman. wrote:
04 Sep 2020, 22:28
Main one is an old and failing queen. However a poorly mated queen will be quickly replaced as her sperm deminishes.
The discussion wasn't about old queens, it was about late mated new queens
huntsman. wrote:
04 Sep 2020, 22:28
My point applies to nucs being supplied with such queens as much as to a travelled queen.
huntsman. wrote:
04 Sep 2020, 18:49
But for someone to buy an expensive travelled queen and have her superseded in the spring of her first year is very wrong, should it happen.
I am not disputing that it cannot apply to nucs ,but you were talking about travelled queens and I was talking about queens. However an over wintered nuc is still far superior to any nuc raised in June. you can assess temperament, brood pattern IE queen quality, prior to sale as previously stated. regardless of how she was raised.
huntsman. wrote:
04 Sep 2020, 22:28
An injured or damaged queen due to poor manipulation will not be replaced by a superceded queen but rather an emergency one.
I would strongly disagree with that statement. a damaged queen still present and alive in the hive is replaced under the supercedure impulse, the caveat is, she must be still laying . if the bee keeper accidentally kills the queen, then the bees raise emergency queen cells.
 #8817  by Cable_Fairy
 10 Sep 2020, 17:15
Cable_Fairy wrote:
04 Sep 2020, 16:56
I have had a late superceedure and expect the new queen to take flight between the 10th and 16th going by the book, however drones appear to be very sparse in my hives so I am not expecting much. If nothing happens I will be combining the two hives over winter.
This may be a strange question, my new queen should be taking her mating flight sometime in the next 6 or so days. What happens if she does not get mated, I believe that she may have a number of goes, does she return to the hive and live out her days, and the hive gradually dies.
 #8818  by Chrisbarlow
 10 Sep 2020, 17:26
Cable_Fairy wrote:
10 Sep 2020, 17:15
Cable_Fairy wrote:
04 Sep 2020, 16:56
I have had a late superceedure and expect the new queen to take flight between the 10th and 16th going by the book, however drones appear to be very sparse in my hives so I am not expecting much. If nothing happens I will be combining the two hives over winter.
This may be a strange question, my new queen should be taking her mating flight sometime in the next 6 or so days. What happens if she does not get mated, I believe that she may have a number of goes, does she return to the hive and live out her days, and the hive gradually dies.
Virgin Queens will attempt several mating flights over a two week period to mate with multiple drones. You hear figures of 12-18 drone partners banded about.

They prefer sunny days in the high teens and twenty temps for their mating flights. I suspect different sub species of millifera can mate in lower or higher temps though.

Approximately four weeks after emergence, if she has not mated at least once I believe her spermatheca solidifies and she is then unable to mate.... Ever

If this happens she will become a drone laying queen.

The hive is then doomed unless the Beekeeper makes an intervention Of some kind. For instance, provides a frame of eggs or a mated queen or another virgin Queen. depending on the time of year depends what action is appropriate
 #8819  by Chrisbarlow
 10 Sep 2020, 17:29
Locally to me, the weather the next two weeks is looking excellent