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More advanced beekeeping discussion forum.
 #6100  by AdamD
 29 Mar 2020, 10:39
Last year I moved my WBC super frames to 8 per box (from 9). This winter I have been moving my National frames from 10 to 9 per box, in the same way, by replacing the castellations. Where I had a few empty supers; they are now full of frames. The cost of discarding the old castellations is offset by the fact that I don't need to buy and make up additional frames as they stretch further. So 9 supers stretches to 10 with the same number of frames. Extraction is easier as there are less frames to uncap and each super will be a little heavier with the reduction of a couple of bee spaces.
How many super frames per box do others use? Or is there a better way?
 #6110  by MickBBKA
 30 Mar 2020, 03:48
I find its all about how they draw the comb. 12 Hoffman frames in a national super usually get drawn out nice and straight and are easy to deal with. I also like Manley frames and had some donated by Nigel last year. I imagine he got fed up with the wayward way the bees draw them ( please correct if I am wrong mate ). So given more room to move I find the bees often build comb too deep on the outer sides and end up with offset comb. This is a pain but once extracted and the comb cut to size it ceases to be a problem once they are filled with drawn comb. I have never used castellation's so can't comment on them directly. 9 frames in a national sounds like a lot of space, have you got better trained bees.....LOL... Mine would build comb sideways at that.
 #6111  by NigelP
 30 Mar 2020, 09:26
Not quite, my steam uncapping knife would need re-adjusting for Manley vs Hoffman. Decided it was far easier to just use 1 type of super frame.
 #6113  by AndrewLD
 30 Mar 2020, 09:53
MickBBKA wrote:
30 Mar 2020, 03:48
I find its all about how they draw the comb. 12 Hoffman frames in a national super usually get drawn out nice and straight and are easy to deal with.
At first I thought, can you get 12 hoffmans in a national super and of course you can, but how do you get them out? With the propolis some of my hives use, I'd be frightened of breaking frames getting the first one out. Is it worth the hassle?
 #6115  by MickBBKA
 30 Mar 2020, 11:52
Never had a problem with 12, I also use 12 in a brood 11 only rarely with a dummy board. :)
 #6119  by Patrick
 30 Mar 2020, 17:43
I use S1 basic BS frames and get the foundation drawn out with narrow plastic ends on, which are about 37mm spacing. Can get 11 frames into the super. After one or two extraction cycles with combs now drawn out evenly, I put them onto wide plastic ends which are 50mm spacing. If the next flow is weak then some brace comb may be built but normally they just get on with filling the combs until they are nice and heavy.

This means 8 frames per super and they stay as fat combs from then on. I try and make sure I take the minimum of comb off with the cappings, otherwise you give the bees more work to draw them back out again and end up with too much honey with your cappings.

But the care taken to do so is more than compensated by the time saved doing 3 less frames a super, unpacking boxes, uncapping, loading, running and unloading the extractor etc, which is crudely a 27% time saving over the same amount of honey in 11 frame boxes.

I did try castellations years ago and just found them annoying for their lack of spacing flexibility. I think you probably just need to commit fully to them. If they work for others - great.

I take off all plastic ends and clean them in hot soda each extraction then refit, which is a small faff castellations would save on. Never tried Manley frames.
 #6120  by NigelP
 30 Mar 2020, 20:03
Self space myself....quite topical /wry grin/
Use Sn4's at 11 per super until drawn then self space by eye at 10, or 9.
Uncapping knife takes everything back to wooden edges, but bees seem happy drawing more foundation....it's what they do...produce wax.
 #6121  by Japey Edge
 31 Mar 2020, 08:57
This is interesting to read through. I've just been putting 11 SN4's in my Abelo supers and thinking that's it. I have noticed a bit of rolling when they're drawn though so I guess I should maybe take a frame out and dummy it, or make a spacer... Hmmm.
 #6124  by AdamD
 31 Mar 2020, 13:12
I guess that you can't use castellations in Abelo boxes?

Bees will draw out super to comb to 1 bee space between them, so there's always the possibility of rolling if the comb is not dead parallel.
 #6125  by AndrewLD
 31 Mar 2020, 14:50
Please be right! I am hoping that there is something you can't do with an Abelo :D
As for rolling, surely that is why you put 11 frames in plus a dummy so that you can take out the dummy and open up a gap before lifting the frames, especially if they are hoffmans (so much less risk compared to spacers)?