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More advanced beekeeping discussion forum.
 #5831  by Patrick
 01 Mar 2020, 09:13
Rereading Donald Sims Sixty Years with Bees I was interested to see he suggests quite frequently using a Taranov board to artificially swarm.

As I understand it, It is simply a wooden ramp against hive entrance with the gap between the top of the ramp and the entrance meaning as bees are shaken in to it, they separate into queen and younger bees clustering under the lip of the ramp and the older bees going back into the hive. It allows an Artificial Swarm to be made with advanced QC’s without finding the queen - other options also exist there obviously.

It used to be mentioned quite a lot years ago but seems to be rarely talked about nowadays. I rather dismissed it as a bit of a visual stunt but is that fair? I have never tried it - has anyone else?
 #5835  by Chrisbarlow
 01 Mar 2020, 12:18
I have never tried it and I suspect that there would be lots of bees about, so not ideal for some one in their garden but reading your remarks would suggest that it might have its merits.

Something to try and evaluate.
 #5837  by Patrick
 01 Mar 2020, 13:11
Good point regarding the garden context Chris. My problem is also my diverse range of hive “ahem” stands. A freestanding ramp would have to be adjustable to cover the different heights off the ground.

Not quite clear how the AS swarm composition is much different to the normal two box split - which also separates flying bees from others.
 #5840  by Chrisbarlow
 01 Mar 2020, 17:14
The advantage I can pick out is not having to find the queen
 #5844  by NigelP
 01 Mar 2020, 18:43
Patrick wrote:
01 Mar 2020, 13:11
heights off the ground.

Not quite clear how the AS swarm composition is much different to the normal two box split - which also separates flying bees from others.
And here lies the crux of of one of the biggest errors ever taught in beekeeping. We divide the bees into flying and nurse bees. Assuming, for swarm control, that the flying (older) bees compose most of the swarm. (and stick the queen with them)...they don't.
A hive loses 70% of its bees under 3 weeks old in a swarm. Most of the older flying bees are out foraging.
Lots of research on it. Winston (and others) have a few papers on the age composition of a swarm.
It makes for interesting reading and food for thought for the thinking beekeeper.
 #5846  by Chrisbarlow
 01 Mar 2020, 19:41
NigelP wrote:
01 Mar 2020, 18:43
Patrick wrote:
01 Mar 2020, 13:11
heights off the ground.

Not quite clear how the AS swarm composition is much different to the normal two box split - which also separates flying bees from others.
And here lies the crux of of one of the biggest errors ever taught in beekeeping. We divide the bees into flying and nurse bees. Assuming, for swarm control, that the flying (older) bees compose most of the swarm. (and stick the queen with them)...they don't.
A hive loses 70% of its bees under 3 weeks old in a swarm. Most of the older flying bees are out foraging.
Lots of research on it. Winston (and others) have a few papers on the age composition of a swarm.
It makes for interesting reading and food for thought for the thinking beekeeper.
have you got a link to any of that research Nigel?
 #5847  by Patrick
 01 Mar 2020, 22:35
So if the Taranov ends up with the Queen and younger bees as the AS, which is a better replication if the natural situation I wonder why it is so rarely used nowadays?

Whereas most conventional AS splits end up with flying bees and Queen, including eventually Snelgrove ll?
 #5848  by AdamD
 02 Mar 2020, 08:59
I have read about the Taranov board but never used one. I have usually been able to find my queen - or if it's clipped, it might finish up under the hive in any case! However the idea that you can get ahead of the bees before they swarm and have the queen and younger bees a short distance from the hive so they can be easily managed is a good one.
I could have used one last year perhaps. A clipped queen swarmed from a WBC and went back inside in the cavity between the internal boxes and the lifts and I just could not find her, despite her being marked. Maybe I could have used the T. board for that. Maybe next time!
 #5849  by NigelP
 02 Mar 2020, 12:37
Most of the references can be found in Winston's "Biology of the Honey Bee" book as he talks about the ages distribution in swarms briefly. The hive loses 75% of its young bees with the primary swarm.....NOT the swarm comprises of 75% young bees, there are all age classes. Just the younger bees form the majority.
It makes sense as new hive needs wax makers fast...which we know swarms do. And the young bees lost in the original hive are soon replaced by the soon to emerge brood. It makes neat tidy biological sense apart from the brood gap. It also helps explain why swarms have no "home memory" as the younger bees have never orientated.....and would we ever know if some of the older flying bees in a swarm returned home if housed in same apiary?
Another paper saying pretty much the same can be found here.
https://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/abs/1998/02/Apidologie_0044-8435_1998_29_3_ART0003/Apidologie_0044-8435_1998_29_3_ART0003.html
or google The identity of nest-site scouts in honey bee swarms


Been thinking about this a bit, and whatever plan I come up with involves more work than I would like. Taranov is out as takes long time and bees everywhere.
Currently thinking of moving hive with swarm cells elsewhere and replace original hive. Flying older bees will end up back home. Next part/next day involves sticking most the queen cells and most of the brood back to the original site whilst adding fresh foundation to queen and nurse bees.
See it's already too complicated :)
 #5855  by Chrisbarlow
 02 Mar 2020, 18:14
Thanks Nigel