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More advanced beekeeping discussion forum.
 #5486  by AndrewLD
 15 Jan 2020, 08:10
Alfred wrote:
12 Jan 2020, 16:48
I was toying with the idea for swarm capturing,with only one drawn comb for the queen to start laying then remove it once capped trapping as many mites as possible until the new combs are ready.
Assuming it's not a virgin that's going to get spooked what could possibly go wrong....
Not quite sure what you mean by swarm capturing - do you mean bait hives or rehousing a swarm. If it is bait hives - might attract wax moth until the hive is occupied????
If it is rehousing a swarm and your object is to get rid of phoretic varroa - that should work and is what I have done with a shook swarm. Some recommend an immediate varroa treatment after housing a swarm (not my idea of making them feel at home though) and I might be tempted to sugar dust as a kinder alternative. Might there not be a disease implication - i.e. exposing the swarm to something they didn't have?
 #5487  by AndrewLD
 15 Jan 2020, 09:09
NigelP wrote:
13 Jan 2020, 09:38
My readings have shown, that interestingly, in a natural swarm their is a disproportionate number of young bees compared to the hives older bees.i.e the vast majority of bees in a swarm are very young bees. ............................Which is interesting as it turns our usual thoughts about swarm controls on their head. i.e queen with flying bees to imitate a a"natural" swarm.
On the face of it you are reinforcing my thought that an artificial swarm control is not mimicing anything natural and is actually quite disruptive, especially if you leave it as split and don't try to equalize (which I have already explained is tricky in my close linear layout).
Forget varroa - it was just an afterthought because my autumn treatment often leaves me borderline by mid-spring and I am not prepared to do MAQ's except in an emergency - too stressful. On a similar vein, I am not enamoured with the oxalic treatment in winter because I don't like to disturb the winter cluster (if we really have one these days of changing weather patterns). The solution is half treatment before the first super goes on, or put the first super on and keep it permanently out of the food chain - could a good candidate for also being the last super that I always leave on when I take the main honey off first week in August - I'll give that some more thought.
My thinking was that I'd go for a shook swarm as a way of getting them on fresh foundation, get them working and put all ideas of swarming out of their little minds. The trouble is the timing has to be exactly right because it needs to trip them over the point at which they think its really a bit late to swarm - we'll go next year (a method expounded by Kenneth Clark in his 1950's book) but I realise I could be too reliant on the bees cooperation. Too early and they will just build up and swarm anyway.
I see Adam has written at length on shook swarm so better get the kettle on and settle down with a cup tea in hand :)
 #5488  by AndrewLD
 15 Jan 2020, 09:28
AdamD wrote:
14 Jan 2020, 21:02
A Bailey comb exchange doesn't work well early in the season when .................Also, If there are frames of stores in the lower box, they (some) can be removed and dummy boards pushed up against the brood so squeeze the bees in - which means that they need to move upwards as there's insufficient space in the lower box for them.

What I tend to do is to .............................................
Adam ; first of all, thank you for taking the time and trouble to explain all this in such detail; brilliant - I'll follow your advice to the letter. I have re-employedthe Thorne Bailey Comb change floor (it is now a travel screen with propolis mesh over the plastic QE)and for the reason I gave previously will use wired excluders and I have plenty of 1" eke's so I can make flip-out entrances in those...... Just need to get some extra dummy boards.
Thanks again - let's see how it goes - third time lucky
 #5495  by Alfred
 15 Jan 2020, 19:30
AndrewLD wrote:
15 Jan 2020, 08:10
If it is rehousing a swarm and your object is to get rid of phoretic varroa - that should work and is what I have done with a shook swarm.
Yes I will be putting out a couple of bait hives this year with the intention of increase with new queenage
I thought about setting up with one bait comb in each as Ive got plenty of old sub standard brood wax.
For the new combs Im considering starter strips of pine (found them under my table saw!)
Moths wont eat them and I can see the grubs before transfer to full hives.
Y/N?
 #5497  by AdamD
 15 Jan 2020, 20:06
For winter Oxalic Acid treatment Andrew, it it really quick and the cluster is not disturbed directly; crown board off; dribble dribble; crown board on. Generally a few bees fly up but if you are quick they hardly have time to warm up their flight muscles so I generally don't see many fly at all. For disturbance, I guess the question is how the oxalic acid works its way through the cluster of the next few hours/days and how much it affects the bees. Sorry, I can't answer that. However the only good varroa is a dead varroa, so maybe a small bit of disturbance is worth it.
 #5498  by Patrick
 15 Jan 2020, 20:29
Its a yes from me Alfred.. :)

The higher up (within reason) you site them the better. A flat shed roof works for me. Also a few drops of lemongrass oil is supposed to help attract them tho not tried it yet myself. An old comb is definitely an attractant as is a box previously used by bees, if its new box then a wipe over of slumgum is supposed to work.

I also agree the winter oxalic dribble should take no more than 30 seconds. It may depend on the time of day and ambient temperature as to whether they move at all. I did it midday on a warm day when a few were flying anyway this year, a few did come up to see what was going on but the cluster as such remained undisturbed. I don't honestly think it sets them back at all.
 #5501  by AndrewLD
 16 Jan 2020, 08:06
Alfred wrote:
15 Jan 2020, 19:30
Yes I will be putting out a couple of bait hives this year with the intention of increase with new queenage
I thought about setting up with one bait comb in each as Ive got plenty of old sub standard brood wax.
For the new combs Im considering starter strips of pine (found them under my table saw!)
Moths wont eat them and I can see the grubs before transfer to full hives.
Y/N?
For a really useful guide to bait hives search Cornell University Bait Hives for Honeybees. I have used them with great success and my garage roof always has a couple come April. There are lots of good hints in that paper that should be noted; facing south, entrance shaded, small entrance, solid floor etc. I have them strapped up ready to lower off the roof as soon as I know that the box is occupied.
A dribble of lemongrass, a used comb makes it all the more attractive. A 14x12 brood box is pretty much the ideal 40ltrs size and I put a full set foundation in mine but with a twist. I have at least two frames near the entrance made up with standard national brood wax and a couple of extra frame bottom bars so that the bottom part of the 14x12 frame is empty - gives them space without prompting wild comb which swarms love to make in a bait box gtiven half the chance. I then use them for drone culling once the colony is properly housed.
The bait box will be found by scouts and then more and more bees will come to inspect it. You know the swarm is due to arrive soon when the bees start to occupy it overnight. Critical not to disturb them or they can fly off and never return. I find a glass cover board lets me see if they are fully in there once I think the swarm has arrived. Then it's off the the out apiary until I am happy to put them with my other bees.
 #5502  by Patrick
 16 Jan 2020, 09:04
Really good point about wild or free comb being constructed in space left if only one drawn comb is supplied or less frames than fills the box, then you need to be on it if a swarm takes up residence ,otherwise they will just do what they are all set up to do, namely quickly lay down wax to draw out combs to fill out the empty space. A prolonged period of ? Are they / Aren’t they ? can find loads of wasted effort on wild combs drawn down from the crownboard and full of open brood. It’s a recoverable situation but disruptive and wasteful to sort out.

Don’t be tempted to just leave them to it if so - it tends to just get more problematic with time. Trust me.. :roll:
 #5504  by NigelP
 16 Jan 2020, 13:05
AndrewLD wrote:
15 Jan 2020, 09:09
On the face of it you are reinforcing my thought that an artificial swarm control is not mimicing anything natural and is actually quite disruptive,

Still puzzled here Andrew.
Are you now suggesting that you are performing a shook swarm as a method of swarm control, rather than as you said earlier for varroa control?
I'm also concerned that you say you don't like to disrupt bees etc but are prepared to seriously disrupt them with a shook swarm.
I've still yet to see any argument that suggests performing a shook swarm on healthy bees is good idea.
 #5505  by Alfred
 16 Jan 2020, 13:35
AdamD wrote:
15 Jan 2020, 20:06
For winter Oxalic Acid treatment Andrew, it it really quick and the cluster is not disturbed directly; crown board off; dribble dribble; crown board on. Generally a few bees fly up but if you are quick they hardly have time to warm up their flight muscles so I generally don't see many fly at all. For disturbance, I guess the question is how the oxalic acid works its way through the cluster of the next few hours/days and how much it affects the bees. Sorry, I can't answer that. However the only good varroa is a dead varroa, so maybe a small bit of disturbance is worth it.
I trickled for the first time last month and I agree with this
No one strayed from the clusters and I had a tub full of 5ml syringes pre-loaded ready.
30 seconds would be the total time between removing and replacing the ratchet straps.