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  • keeping spares

  • Beginners forum, ask beekeeping related questions and get help from other experienced beekeepers. Please use the Search Feature please to avoid duplicated threads
Beginners forum, ask beekeeping related questions and get help from other experienced beekeepers. Please use the Search Feature please to avoid duplicated threads
 #3176  by Alfred
 19 May 2019, 15:28
I went to an association meeting where they were teaching inspections and in addition to keeping one capped plus one uncapped queen cell they were also putting the occasional ones into mating boxes.
I'm a bit twitchy right now having been without any bees for a long time so I was wondering if I could do something along those lines as a backup colony.
I have a rehoused swarm which has one rogue shallow frame in the brood box
It grows lobes of comb very quickly
It's a nuisance for me to have to take it off and a wasted effort for the bees.

So If I got a queen cell on it ,I would shake off the flying bees and get the frame into my poly-nuc,then remove it when the colony is more up and running.
They would overwinter in this box too.
Am I on the right track or will some ecological disaster ensue?
 #3177  by Jim Norfolk
 19 May 2019, 18:37
Leaving two Qcs will IMHO result in them swarming when the first queen emerges. Any back up queen cells I put on their frame in a nuc. I have never had them swarm even if there are multiple queen cells. This is because there are no flying bees which have gone back to the main colony and there are too few bees to swarm with. My system is: good colony make at least one nuc. Average colony make a nuc if there is space in the apiary or enough equipment. Poor colony remove all QCs and requeen from good nuc or put in frame with eggs from good colony or even use as queen cell raiser.

Rogue shallow frames in brood boxes get drawn. Often this is worker comb but can be drone or a combination of both. I tend to leave it with them unless there is a Varroa problem then the drone comb is removed. If you get a queen cell on it you can move it into a nuc. However if it was a swarm they are unlikely to produce more queen cells unless they think the queen is no good. You can overwinter bees in a poly nuc but they usually need extra feeding. You don't need to shake off the flying bees. They will leave the nuc and fly home on their own. You may need to shake in extra nurse bees however.

In your case I would just leave the swarm and see how they turn out before trying to increase from them. They may be nice or they may be terrible.
 #3180  by Alfred
 19 May 2019, 20:14
Thanks Jim
I'll take that advice.
As it happens the swarms I have accumulated are fairly placid- it's the nuc I bought that's pure evil...
 #3184  by Patrick
 20 May 2019, 00:08
Alfred wrote:
19 May 2019, 15:28
I went to an association meeting where they were teaching inspections and in addition to keeping one capped plus one uncapped queen cell they were also putting the occasional ones into mating boxes
You don’t say what swarm control method they were teaching - splits / making nucs / artifical swarms whatever. As Jim says, leaving two cells capped or uncapped can be entirely self-defeating and simply leads to a “mystery” depopulation ( well they can’t have “swarmed” because I removed the queen). No they didn’t, they “casted” instead..

I sometimes dispair at what is taught. It is hardly a surprise so many struggle.

Alfred, as long as the parent colony is reasonable good spare cells are very useful. Carefully removed from the comb and wrapped in a small cone of kitchen foil with only the cell tip uncovered up the foil tube, you can pop them in a queenless nuc or use in swarm control. One of my favourites, once suitably protected, is to simply lodge one between the top bars of a colony which is apparently queenless, with a known dodgy queen, poor brood pattern or simply bad tempered. The new queen will emerge and may take over the hive (killing old queen if present). If done on a queen right colony it’s called a “forced supercedure” and can turn around the fortunes of a failing hive. Not always successful granted, but works enough to try if you have a problem to fix and a spare cell that would otherwise go to waste. Really satisfying when the bees allow it to succeed.
 #3186  by AdamD
 20 May 2019, 13:41
Alfred wrote:
19 May 2019, 15:28
I went to an association meeting where they were teaching inspections and in addition to keeping one capped plus one uncapped queen cell they were also putting the occasional ones into mating boxes.
I don't know the details of the meeting and the full discussion - however if the colony is a decent one, leaving two queencells in the hive means that it will probably swarm with the first queen out, leaving the younger queen to take over the colony. It should be one queencell per hive unless it is depleted of bees.

To make up a nuc, take the frame with the queencell on, place it in a nuc with a frame of stores and some shaken in bees (bees from the supers are good as they tend not to be the flyers so don't know where 'home' is yet). Fill the space with foundation or stores/drawn comb as available. Do not shake the frame the queencell is on as the queen could be damaged. Close up the colony for two or three days in the cool and dark. (The books always tell us to use a cellar, but not many of us have one so behind the shed or garage is usually suitable). Open in the evening. The flyers will return to the parent colony. Very occasionally nearly all the bees return so you do need to check the day after opening and add some more shaken in bees if needed. The queen should emerge 8 days after the queencell has been sealed. It's good to see an open queencell. Don't feed the nuc for a few days - the reason is that the 'donor' colony might get the idea that there's a free meal there and rob it - remember that bees have moved from one box to another so the 'donor' colony knows the little hive is there.

With a good queen, the nuc should get to be large enough to get through winter.