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  • Swarm cells or supercedure cells?

  • Beginners forum, ask beekeeping related questions and get help from other experienced beekeepers. Please use the Search Feature please to avoid duplicated threads
Beginners forum, ask beekeeping related questions and get help from other experienced beekeepers. Please use the Search Feature please to avoid duplicated threads
 #3016  by Patrick
 10 May 2019, 21:04
One of my last year queens managed to wriggle through the QX and was laying in the supers for a couple of weeks in April. I put her back in the National brood box which she laid up wall to wall incredibly quickly. She is on three supers. Queen is clipped.

Went in today (overdue due to weather), Queen seen. Packed brood box with eggs and found a central frame with just two sealed cells - one off the top of the frame one down the side. All other frames shook and clear.

So - Q. still present although cells sealed. Frequent eggs seen. Last Year Q. Big colony so reduced pheromone? Very few cells for a big colony to produce as swarm cells. Are cells = supercedure? Therefore leave them to got on with it “bees know best” etc?

Or - Lot of bees. Q. run out of laying space. Plenty of stores. It’s peak swarming time and weather due to be fair = swarm cells?

What would you have done?
 #3017  by Chrisbarlow
 10 May 2019, 21:19
Swarm cells most probably.

Dameree. Plus harvest queen cells for nuc if no nucs already in apiary.
 #3019  by Caroline
 10 May 2019, 22:26
I think supercedure.

I had a similar situation in the past and simply left the bees to get on with it (I know, many will disagree) and I saw no evidence of swarm or cast, just a new queen heading-up the colony with no apparent loss of bees.

I suspect that if you transferred the existing queen to a nuc,the workers will raise Qcells again within the nuc to supercede her, or she will 'disappear' without Qcells being raised.
 #3026  by Jim Norfolk
 11 May 2019, 08:46
Patrick I also think supersedure unless they are waiting for better weather to swarm. Any idea of the age of the QCs? I would just leave them to it, but keep an eye out for them trying to swarm with the clipped queen. Easier said than done :)
 #3035  by Patrick
 12 May 2019, 09:16
Thanks for thoughts y’all! Jim, I reckon it was sealed two days before inspection (inspection delayed for poor weather).

Based on the evidence given and time of year agree both options are entirely feasible! I do struggle with the certainty in books about the three cell types. Emergency and swarm cells are often obvious but supercedure less so. Yes a single large cell in a colony in September with a four year old queen is likely queen replacement but in May they could just as easily swarm on it. Position on the comb may be a clue but not conclusive in my experience.

In this case the fact the queen is clipped means that as long as only a single cell was left, either intention would have likely had the same outcome - the old queen would be replaced / probably lost and emerging virgin take over, but most importantly I would not risk losing the workers bees in a swarm. They might still try to swarm again later whatever.

As the queen was still laying strongly, I decided to keep her for the moment and as Chris suggested Demaree’d with a single cell kept in the top box and a wrap of foil around it, in case they went bonkers and suddenly raised loads of emergency cells and broke down the good one. I may reunite later on anyway when / if new queen laying well - so maybe bit of extra work to achieve same outcome as Caroline and Jim’s leave ‘em to it option!

For me, a classic example of one of those occasions where a clipped queen reduces the risk losing bees if I get it wrong :D
 #3036  by AdamD
 12 May 2019, 09:55
A clipped queen helps a lot - as you point out, they could swarm on what we might think of supercedure cells. Option might have been to harvest the queencells to a nuc with some brood and shaken in bees which would relieve the pressure on space in the 'donor' colony, although a relatively small reduction in congestion does not make a significant difference in my view.

I have one large colony (18 brood) where I have never seen the queen so if they chose to start swarm cells, I can't do the usual techniques. I looked for her yesterday and didn't see her.
 #3040  by Caroline
 12 May 2019, 10:15
AdamD wrote:
12 May 2019, 09:55
I have one large colony (18 brood) where I have never seen the queen so if they chose to start swarm cells, I can't do the usual techniques. I looked for her yesterday and didn't see her.
Adam, have you tried the following to find your queen, it's a bit laborious but it worked for me....

Remove supers and queen excluder, leaving top brood box in position. Have a spare brood box to one side. Remove each of the brood frames from the top box in turn, placing them into the spare brood box once you've had good look at the frame.

If the queen isn't seen on the frames from the top brood box, lift the empty box to one side (after checking queen not on the brood box) and do the same process with the bottom frames.

I operate my double brood with a queen excluder between the two brood boxes, restricting the queen to the bottom box. At inspections I rotate two or three frames between the two boxes to maintain laying space in the bottom box. The top brood box is too heavy for me to lift, so I remove half the frames to a spare box so I lift less weight, at the same time selecting which frames I will move to the bottom box. As I check the frames in the bottom box I switch the ones I want to move to the top box (once I know which frame the queen is on!).

In the autumn I remove the queen excluder so the bees and queen have free movement between the two boxes.
 #3059  by AdamD
 13 May 2019, 11:47
Caroline,
I will have another look soon. I had considered whether to put an excluder between the two brood boxes for 3+ day and then at least I will know which box she is in. I can then move that box away so the flyers return to the hive to make the inspection a little easier. Often they 'just appear' when you are least expecting them to do so, so I hope that will happen next time!

IF they do start swarm cells, then I might consider an A/S with just one frame of brood at the old site. This would result in the flyers returning to the old site and if there is no queen, they would make one. Meanwhile the remaining brood and bees would lose the flyers and (hopefully) cease trying to swarm. Unless there are any other suggestions!
 #3060  by Patrick
 13 May 2019, 12:20
Not being able to find the queen when she is in a big colony can be right pain, especially when there are queen cells and not much time to get it sorted. Another occasion when if you have a previously clipped queen the consequences of making a mistake are much reduced (you simply have an aborted swarm attempt, no bees need be lost).

You could also simply shake /brush all the bees in the top box into the lower brood box and pop the QX on top of that, then you know she must be in the lower box. You wouldn't have to wait several days then to know which box she is in. If you still couldn't find her then or it is bee mayhem, you can rebuild the stack, the nurse bees come up to cover the brood in the second box and an hour or so later remove the lower box well away to one side, leave it open and leave the supers, second brood chamber on the original site. All the flying bees orientate to the hive stack. What is left in the lower box to one side will be a much reduced number of docile nurse bees and a queen, which you can quietly go through without disturbance or fluster knowing she must be there.
 #3061  by Patrick
 13 May 2019, 12:48
Adam -re-reading your post I now realise the latter part of my post simply gave more detail to what you had already said to do ... repetition is the sincerest form of flattery or something like that :lol: