Pagden Swarm Control Method / Heddon Method

[Chrisbarlow]

A couple of good pages explaining/showing how to perform the pagden swarm control method with the Heddon method added in for good measure.

http://barnsleybeekeepers.org.uk/pagden.html

this is a youtube video, posted by Diane on the videos post.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCReKLV6CB4

[NigelP]

Aye but does it provide the information that "works in some areas with some bees" and is totally useless in others.
I have never ever managed to get a pagden to work on the local bee population in my area. Yet I hear it works fine in other areas....

[Jim Norfolk]

Pagden was a skep beekeeper and he was really writing about what to do after your colony had swarmed and you had collected the swarm. He advocated moving the original skep to a new site and hiving the swarm on the old site. This produced a strong colony which made lots of honey. So not really to do with swarm control. Not sure why they use his name for what is really just an artificial swarm.

[Chrisbarlow]

Aye but does it provide the information that "works in some areas with some bees" and is totally useless in others.
I have never ever managed to get a pagden to work on the local bee population in my area. Yet I hear it works fine in other areas....

you should take some BBKA exams, this is covered.

I tried it when I first started beekeeping with mixed results, I much prefer dameree these days. proactive not reactive.

[NigelP]

I tried it when I first started beekeeping with mixed results, I much prefer dameree these days. proactive not reactive.

Too much like hard work, Snelgrove method I or II is much easier although it does involve a board.
Funny how most of the demaree variations seem to involve a board now....which really makes them a bastardised Snelgrove which they incorrectly call Demaree.

[MickBBKA]

Pagden works very well for me and my locals. Key is not to transfer any brood or eggs with the AS. Some folk transfer the queen on a frame of eggs to prevent absconding but if they are wired to swarm they just build QC's on it. I transfer mine straight onto foundation and never used to use a queen includer but I do now just to be safe. Never failed yet.

[Patrick]

Well, well, well..

I don’t have Ted Hooper to hand but I seem to remember him or someone else saying not to improve on it by not including any brood on the transfer frame. I have never tested that but interesting to know you have and “got away with it”.

Are the rest of the frames foundation as well? My bees really wouldn’t play ball with just foundation and would often build QC’s repeatedly on first bit drawn and not settle down, but it was a long time ago and I have given them drawn comb since.

With only foundation it’s actually very becoming close to a shook swarm which is no bad thing. As Nigel points out, we do have different names for often fundamentally similar procedures. No wonder it’s not just new beeks that get confused. Keeps us on all our toes coming up with variations.

[NigelP]

Nearest I ever got Pagden to work, I had the queen laying and all was looking good. Then then drew queen cells on the small patch of larvae that developed and swarmed 6 days later.
The half with the single queen cells, she emerged got mated and swarmed that autumn.....damn those local bees

[Chrisbarlow]

I just think that when something works for one beek but not another it can be to some degree that we as beekeepers have been selecting bees for specific traits without realising it IE if you have a colony where pagden doesnt work , you think they are swarmy and get rid of the queen (or lose it) but the one that it does work for, you like and keep, or the daughter doesnt leave and then you start keeping bees where the pagden does work. Just my two cents.

[Chrisbarlow]

Too much like hard work, Snelgrove method I or II is much easier although it does involve a board.

Sounds intersting NP. So are you going to start a new thread and explain your process. I am always up for trying different techniques