Wintering

[Patrick]

Hi CF,
Not a Penine local but another vote for fondant at this point.

Never very helpful giving retrospective advice but I am wondering about the 1212121 formation. If you get a warmish afternoon I would (exceptionally) nip in and check they have drawn the foundation in the middle out. If not or only half heartedly take out those frames and put the full combs with brood together, flanked by any with only stores and maybe one of foundation on the outside tops. Then dummy board and close up.

I am guessing they may not have substantially drawn out most of the foundation due to time of season etc and simply have no comb space to store more syrup hence why it is not going down. If you whack on a good lump of fondant in a ziplock freezer bag (cut open underneath of course) they can use it up as needed.

I completely understand your interleaving foundation but splitting brood nests is really only a ploy for big colonies in warm weather. What a May nuc can manage is not the same as a September one possibly only just assembled, so advice you got may have been confusing.

You see references made all the time to foundation as representing “more space” but I am convinced bees do not consider it as usable space until drawn as comb or provided as drawn comb, hence why many artificial swarms abscond after being split. Given a whole box of foundation as often advised and only the drawn comb with the queen on - they raise more queen cells and leg it anyway, leaving the poor perplexed beekeeper thinking they must have done something wrong, not that the method was basically flawed.

When starting out you are obviously constrained but the brood chamber is not a great place to draw foundation unless it is a new swarm.

Good luck and don’t worry they will be fine!

[Cable_Fairy]

Many thanks Chris, Jim, Adam and Patrick for all your information. The reason I put the foundation between the frames was because when I pulled out the frames from the Polynuc the bees were three or four deep on all the frames. (On my previous inspection 10 days before they actually attacked me.) It looks like it will be a nice warm day tomorrow so I am going to have a look, if the new frames are not being drawn I will move them towards the outside. I will also take your advice of feeding them the fondant and see how it goes. The Bees are still quite active and bringing in lots of pollen, so they must be putting it somewhere. I was hoping that they would start drawing the middle two frames, the outside ones were just to fill the box instead of dummy boards. I was thinking of insulating the brood box with polystyrene but will have a go with something like Jim's. (Our winters up here are quite harsh, well last winters was, but I have the hives at the bottom of the garden well sheltered with dense evergreen shrubs on three sides.
Once again many thanks, looks like I have a lot of work this next week
Dave

[Patrick]

Nice one. Let us know what you find..

[Cable_Fairy]

Well I have had a quick look this afternoon, they are noticeably quieter. I gently lifted the new frames, the two outer ones are empty, which is what I expected, however the two middle ones are about two thirds full of drawn comb and about half full of nectar and capped honey. That is both sides of each frame.

[Patrick]

Thanks for letting us know, always interesting when you have been second guessing what might occur.

Personally I would still move those two stores combs to the outside as otherwise if they do fill and cap a frame in the middle of the box the queen may behave as if the brood nest is only one or two combs wide.

Not such an issue now perhaps but unless they clear those combs it could be an issue next spring and really limit build up.

What would others do?

[Cable_Fairy]

Patrick, Many thanks for the advice, I have a glass quilt and feeder eke on order so will move them when I put them on.

[Chrisbarlow]

thanks for the update. Thats interesting. I dont think this will be a problem leaving the frames where they are as by the time we get to Spring , most of those stores will have gone.

How the stores are used , I suspect it will depend on what sort of winter we have, very cold for long periods will leave more of the stores in the hive, cool and damp will mean stores are used quicker.

[Cable_Fairy]

Further to my previous. As you know I have two hives, a National and a WBC. I have insulated the National (complete with super underneath), with a layer of silvered bubble wrap (used for loft insulation) and the bees seem to spend a lot of time congregating on the top bars. The WBC only has a brood box as the bees did not have time in autumn to do anything in the super. The box is insulated inside the lifts and around the box , however the bees seem to be bunched in the frames. I am wondering if I should put a super underneath the brood to keep them warmer. On both hives when the temperature reaches 10C they come out.

[AdamD]

The most important thing to do is to insulate above the crownboard. I have some kingspan/celotex I use in WBC's but I will also stuff bubble-wrap in there if that's all I have. You can add a lift and increase the insulation volume of course.
One thing with WBC's is that there is not usually any weight on the crownboard so it doesn't always seal well - propolis builds up and without the weight of a hive roof to squeeze it down, it causes drafts; so I often have something to go on the top - a brick or two.
I personally would not put a super underneath at this time of year - just leave them be.

[Cable_Fairy]

The most important thing to do is to insulate above the crownboard. I have some kingspan/celotex I use in WBC's but I will also stuff bubble-wrap in there if that's all I have. You can add a lift and increase the insulation volume of course.
One thing with WBC's is that there is not usually any weight on the crownboard so it doesn't always seal well - propolis builds up and without the weight of a hive roof to squeeze it down, it causes drafts; so I often have something to go on the top - a brick or two.
I personally would not put a super underneath at this time of year - just leave them be.

Many thanks for your reply. I have two layers of carpet underlay, 3 layers of the silvered bubble wrap with layers of unsilvered bubble wrap in between and a piece of insulation from a well known supplier on top of a glass quilt. The underside of the roof has silvered bubble wrap under it. I also have silvered wrap around the brood box.