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  • Odd one out

  • Beginners forum, ask beekeeping related questions and get help from other experienced beekeepers. Please use the Search Feature please to avoid duplicated threads
Beginners forum, ask beekeeping related questions and get help from other experienced beekeepers. Please use the Search Feature please to avoid duplicated threads
 #3228  by Alfred
 23 May 2019, 14:06
I have one colony that does not behave well .
The environment and my techniques are identical across all the other hives and the all others are ok with my inspections,which are done in teeshirt weather.
The colony in question is a bought nuc while the others are swarms.
They are all fed 2:1 syrup
There doesn't appear to be much pollen being taken in on any hive.
One of the swarms has eggs, larvae and sealed brood and stores.They don't take much feed
The nasty lot are last out of the hive in the morning and are not taking much feed either.
I have done these lot last so I can complete the other swarms without anaphalactic shock.
Maybe I should do them first so there's less pheromone in the air.
I approach from a long way round the back and smoke lightly before lifting any woodwork. but the are around me straight away.
By the time I have the first frame out they're on the veil howling and by the second frame I'm getting stung through leather gloves.
I can't tell what's going on because I haven't managed to get to the third frame yet -I have to abandon the job.They then harass me until I leave the site.This can be for hours.
There is some new comb.but that's all I can see.
Other than a missing queen what could be wrong or what am I doing wrong (the others behave quite well )
I mention this to an elderly beekeeper and obviously apart from a missing queen I said should I requeen ?
He said it was always a last resort but smiled ,nodded at me and said no more.
So what else ?
 #3229  by Jim Norfolk
 23 May 2019, 15:50
Alfred, my understanding is that while your local swarms in common with most local colonies are friendly, but your bought in nuc is not. Do you know the ancestry of this colony? Maybe it was fine when you got it but it has now produced a new queen and turned nasty, which would suggest F2 agression. On the other hand you may have been sold an F2 nuc which was calm enough when it was small but has grown into a monster. You have to re-queen it, which is easier said than done. To help with handling the bees leave a box on the site and move the brood box with the queen in it 6 feet away. The flying bees should go to the other box leaving you with a quieter brood box to go through. Use some pungent smoke, I use bay leaves or pine cones. If you don't have a queen to replace madam grumpy with, there are options. Kill the old queen and they will produce emergency queen cells. You could leave one of these and hope that the daughter is better or remove all the queen cells and either use a queen cell from a good colony or a frame with eggs and very young larvae from which they can make queen cells. Don't be in a rush to trash queen cells as they will only make more from older larvae and hide them as they get smaller and smaller. Leave it at least a week after killing the queen and then go in and deal with the capped queen cells once they no longer have any young larvae to use. Make a second visit a few days later and if they have made more queen cells go back again. Shake the bees off each frame into the brood box and have a good look but if you want to keep the queen cell brush the bees off. i use a feather to move bees.
 #3230  by AdamD
 23 May 2019, 16:42
Occasionally colonies change at the end of OSR, however you obviously have a difficult colony to deal with, which is no fun.

I can't recall what you said or of you said how you came about the purchase of the nuc and how it's changed since you had it ?? if it's from a 'dealer' or commercial supplier, they should consider swapping it out.

Changing a queen can be troublesome - as they can be worse whilst they are queenless before a new queen is introduced so you do need to be sure what you intend to do before you attempt it.
 #3232  by NigelP
 23 May 2019, 18:26
Sounds ,like a re-queen.
One way with a difficult hive is simply move to a different position in your apiary. Flying bees will adapt to loss of home by encamping in any other hives near their original site....and (usually) become calmer.
The nuc from hell will also be much calmer in a few days due to losing all flying bees.
Also ditch your leather gloves and go for nitrile or washing up gloves.
You can't see some of the stings in leather gloves and this can lead to a build up of alarm pheromone and drives placid bees totally crazy ..... With rubber gloves the bees cannot "grip" to force the sting in...you will find them hitting the gloves hoping to get purchase but they fail (most of the time). And when they do succeed you remove sting and alarm pheromone disperses.
 #3236  by Alfred
 23 May 2019, 20:36
There's some good reading there -applying all these tips looks promising -thanks chaps.
I bought the nuc from a reputable local keeper and from the outset have the option of a return.
They were evil as I transferred them from the transport box and haven't changed.
As far as I can tell there's some beautiful fresh comb drawn on the bamboo skewer frames I made up (the expensive maisemore foundation has been completely skipped to get across to my DIY frames)but other than that they appear to be on the same four frames they arrived on.
Understandibly I havent spotted a queen yet on outer frames so better gloves and moving the box might get me towards the middle of the box
I get a kick from repairing things so mending this lot would be satisfying and educational for me
I'd rather give it a go before running back.

I forgot to mention that all the colony's arrived recently - would they calm down naturally anyway as the current guards and flyers die away?
Perhaps it's older bees and a new Queen.
HRH's DNA hasn't got all the way through yet?
I hadn't thought about the leather mitts,and in hindsight they do look like I've been clearing brambles .It's going to be a leap of faith with the marigolds though.
I have some eucalyptus leaves to try-Ive had to learn very quickly how to load the smoker so it lasts ..
I have another little out -site 150 yards away if that would help?
I'm not familiar with the F1/2 terminology
Im going back in next week better prepared
 #3240  by Patrick
 23 May 2019, 22:37
Alfred you are on a pretty steep learning curve starting with several colonies at once, so this year I would keep it as simple as possible and don’t try too many things at once. Then if things don’t go to plan you can work out why a lot easier.

I am totally with you re mending and fixing, but if you have bought a nuc which is fierce and has a return option - return it. Two reasons - one, there will be plenty of other opportunities to learn how to and you really don’t need the aggravation at present. The future situations will not come with a return option so use it whilst it is still valid! If you mess up fixing it, the nuc provider may well consider the offer time expired after your efforts.

Second, the nuc provider apparently needs to be practically reminded you should not provide beginners (or anyone else come to that) with unsuitable untested colonies. If you mess about with them too long you provide the excuse “they were fine when they left me” . I am afraid some bees sold are just not as good as they should be.
 #3242  by NigelP
 23 May 2019, 22:52
Patrick wrote:
23 May 2019, 22:37

Second, the nuc provider apparently needs to be practically reminded you should not provide beginners (or anyone else come to that) with unsuitable untested colonies. If you mess about with them too long you provide the excuse “they were fine when they left me” . I am afraid some bees sold are just not as good as they should be.
Yup....I've bought queens off supposedly reputable suppliers that have been nothing like advertised. Carniolan queens whose offspring chased me and my truck for 1/2 a mile after inspections....upon complaint to supplier...well it must be my fault...as I am am expert and you are a novice and don't know what you are talking about so haven't the experience to keep them right.....what can you do...

#It's a number s game...buy a 100 queens or a 100 nucs and most of them will be great, some will be exceptionally good and some will be exceptionally bad...
 #3245  by AdamD
 24 May 2019, 12:58
NigelP wrote:
23 May 2019, 22:52

Yup....I've bought queens off supposedly reputable suppliers that have been nothing like advertised. Carniolan queens whose offspring chased me and my truck for 1/2 a mile after inspections....upon complaint to supplier...well it must be my fault...as I am am expert and you are a novice and don't know what you are talking about so haven't the experience to keep them right.....what can you do...

#It's a number s game...buy a 100 queens or a 100 nucs and most of them will be great, some will be exceptionally good and some will be exceptionally bad...
The only two queens I ever purchased - going back a few years' ago now - (one in a nuc and one by herself) turned out to be less than pleasant, so I decided to select from the best I had, from then on.
 #3265  by Alfred
 25 May 2019, 20:53
Well I'm back from another attempt at this lot.
It was pretty late,cooler and cloudier than the previous tries and all but a few were inside.
Not a great start but it had to be done.
I was also tired from work and not looking forward to another week on piritise pillls.

I put on a nitrile and marigold combo instead of leather plus some polythene cuffs,as they've previously given me bracelets of stings
This time I smoked the entrance really well and left it 30 seconds
Repeat for the super removal lift ,smoke leave to perculate.
They were a lot better this time,still ultra defensive but not as bad as before in better conditions.
They've taken a litre of 2:1 in a week.
The fliers were still at the veil but not howling and I didn't get nailed once.
I got the all brood frames looked at quickly.I didn't hang around so I didn't check the brood cells although lots were sealed.Unfortunatly I won't know if these were on the original nuc frames though.
Only one followed me back to the car at the end.
What I was looking for was queen cells and there were lots mostly sealed (is half a dozen normal?) which I took down.
Even If I don't get to see them righted I don't want them off into the environment with behavioural issues.
So it's a small step forward for me and a massive thanks to you guys for the guidance.
 #3271  by NigelP
 26 May 2019, 18:17
Well done Arthur. Sometimes you just have to man up and go for it.