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  • Bees don't die of the cold "Ever"

  • share the funny, scary & the completely stupid things you've seen & heard
share the funny, scary & the completely stupid things you've seen & heard
 #8723  by JLRs The Bees Knees
 02 Sep 2020, 21:48
Hi all,

A UK commercial beekeeper in another forum I use jumped on a comment I made about my experience of losing bees due to the cold over the years.

He stated "bees never die of the cold" EVER".

This seems to be a big bold statement to make on any forum never mind one with many new and novice beekeepers who look to those with experience for guidance.

My understanding is below 55-40 Fahrenheit, bee muscular movement is majorly effected and slows or stops the ability to generate heat resulting in the likely hood of the bee(s) dying from hypothermia.

Happy to be wrong and learn. Interested to hear your thoughts.
 #8724  by Chrisbarlow
 03 Sep 2020, 08:56
It is a bold statement but maybe a more accurate statement would be overwintering colonies of sufficient size that go into winter healthy with enough stores will never die of the cold.


Weak colonies, diseased colonies or poorly fed colonies going into winter where the bees quickly die off leaving only a small cluster or only a couple of frames of bees at sub zero temperatures can be found "frozen" maybe implying the cold killed them where in fact the lack of food was the actual reason for failure or high disease load or just too small going into winter.

As for 55°f being to cold for bee's, I believe that's 12°c, and 40°f is 4°c my comment would be that temp is certainly warm enough for bees to live unless your referring to the core colony temperature in which case, I don't know. If it is core colony temperature, bees can easily maintain a high enough core temp if there are enough bees, if bees die off quickly to a small cluster then maybe not. However the reason for the quick die off is the reason the colony died not the cold.

It's a very easy statement to make that cold killed the bees but extremely difficult to prove.

As for making that statement to new Beekeepers and less experienced folk, absolutely right I would suggest because many people will blame the cold year after year when in fact it's other factors that can be resolved in season to keep their bees alive.

I have a sneaky suspicion that I think I agree with your commercial Beekeeper.
 #8725  by Chrisbarlow
 03 Sep 2020, 09:02
In relation to what is a sufficient sized colony to overwinter, this would depend on what the hive is made of ie poly or wood. The average outside temperatures overwinter and how long your winter lasts. so a Beekeeper in the Highlands of scotland might require a larger colony than say a Beekeeper in Plymouth.
 #8726  by Patrick
 03 Sep 2020, 16:20
Not seen original conversation obviously but I do remember Health and Safety investigation training I was on years ago with a distinction being made between immediate causes, underlying causes and root causes.

In my part of the world in the Southwest we have had down to minus 16C with all colonies on open mesh floors in wood single walk hives without loss. So tightly clustered colonies with sufficient stores can withstand at least short periods of very significant chill. Ian Steppler, a Canadian commercial guy you tuber overwinters all his bees in a chilled shed at a constant cold temperature for months on end, as the alternative outside temperature in Manitoba In winter is another factor of cold again. So I agree that the cold as an immediate cause of healthy and significant colony mortality is uncommon in my area.

However, one could argue that cold is an underlying reason for colony starvation if they run out of stores and are unable to gather more as plants are not flowering , whilst the root cause was inadequate stores going into winter. This is probably a frequent cause of feral and swarm overwintering mortality. Likewise very small colonies may struggle.

Users of poly hives on here and local to me are pretty positive regarding their overwintering and spring build up and there is periodically enthusiasm for hive insulating, so warmer wintering may be “better” but there is a fair distance between better and fatal.

I think I am with Chris, prolonged cold weather may create the conditions for colony mortality but I haven’t experienced cold directly killing colonies.
 #8728  by AndrewLD
 03 Sep 2020, 17:18
I think a critical factor that I haven't seen mentioned is access to the stores. The winter cluster has to be able to migrate (slowly) to stores even though the cluster is spread over several frames. In a prolonged period of cold the bees can migrate into a corner and be unable to move as a cluster to frames with more stores - i.e. isolation starvation. What killed them - the lack of stores or the cold that forced them to remain so tightly clustered so that they couldn't move to where there were more stores?
But I agree with Chris - I think the point being made was that bees die of starvation not cold on its own.
Too many blame a hard winter killed their bees when what they really mean is that their bees could not access sufficient stores. In an ideal world the beekeeper might anticipate the predicament and place fondant on top of the frames over the cluster ????????????????
I prefer defined seasons but welcome the odd warm days because I then know the bees can move if they need to.
 #8729  by huntsman.
 03 Sep 2020, 17:58
Another factor which should be considered is that the northern European honeybee (Apis mellifera mellifera) which is frugal with winter stores and well adapted to cold winters is now believed lost to everywhere except the Republic of Ireland.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/the-native-irish-honeybee-is-not-extinct-after-all-1.3243037
 #8730  by NigelP
 03 Sep 2020, 19:14
JLRs The Bees Knees wrote:
02 Sep 2020, 21:48
Hi all,

A UK commercial beekeeper in another forum I use jumped on a comment I made about my experience of losing bees due to the cold over the years.
I'd ask the question as to why do you think you are losing your bees due to cold? Or what is happening to make you think it is the cold that is killing them.
Your replier is wrong, but as many posts in this thread point out, losing bees to cold is a complex situation.
Andrew brings up a very interesting point about isolation starvation. It happens. Happened to me several years ago when we had an exceptionally mild February and the queens laid loads of brood and then we had a killer March. Bees wouldn't leave the brood to move to the food. Heartbreaking.
I think we would need to know a bit more about your cold losses before commenting further.
 #8735  by huntsman.
 03 Sep 2020, 20:22
JLR. The bees place their winter stores on both sides of the brood box after the supers are removed and when they are fed strong syrup, plus the ivy comes into flower.

Some beekeepers like to leave a full super over the brood box for the winter but this is another matter.

In the spring, if the colony has died out and you see dead bees with their heads deep within the cells and with their bums and tongues sticking out, then this is starvation.

Should there be honey on the other side, then this is 'isolation starvation' and has little to do with the cold. Just means they didn't move over to it.

Placing a block of fondant on the crown board hole which tends to be in the middle, helps the bees find an alternative source of food, it being between both sides and upwards. Put this on late December, early January.

Hope this helps.

BTW, I might know the other forum you spoke of. You're well rid of them.
 #8737  by AndrewLD
 04 Sep 2020, 09:46
huntsman. wrote:
03 Sep 2020, 17:58
Another factor which should be considered is that the northern European honeybee (Apis mellifera mellifera) which is frugal with winter stores and well adapted to cold winters is now believed lost to everywhere except the Republic of Ireland.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/the-native-irish-honeybee-is-not-extinct-after-all-1.3243037
I thought the northern European Honeybee was a good honey collector because it needed large stores to see it through the winter and overwintered in a larger colony than say the Carolinian bee that over-winters as a small colony on very limited stores but then rapidly increases in colony size in the spring?
But it is an interesting line to follow because I have read that Italian bees that have evolved in the Mediterranean are known to take too much brood into winter and die of starvation if the beekeeper is not alert to the problem and gives them extra food.
Which is back to starvation rather than cold.........