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General Q&A, Bee chat and only Bee chat please
 #2965  by Chrisbarlow
 08 May 2019, 21:52
NigelP wrote:
08 May 2019, 19:31
I suspect if the bees had been of a different characteristic in my area I would never have followed the route I did.
Anyone living in an area with gentle local bees should consider themselves very fortunate.
I agree with you on this one Nigel, I could never find gentle bees, they were always up for a fight.
 #2968  by MickBBKA
 09 May 2019, 01:37
Well here is my Tuppence worth,
I think the BBKA has taken upon itself to identify what they think is the ' correct ' bee for the UK ( England ). To my knowledge there has been no consultation what this 'Bee' should be and the traits it should have. As Nigel sates I do have very nice bees here in Teesside. I did used to think I had very swarmy bees but as I have become a better beekeeper I find my bees are less swarmy. This may imply I am better at understanding my bees requirements. This year I have a 2015 Queen who is knocking doors down laying up brood frames and I will give her every chance she deserves. I also have several 2016 queens doing just as well. She had 11 frames in a full brood and 8 in the 1/2 brood + 2 and 1/2 supers just before the Night King arrived with the undead 2 weeks ago. Knowing Nigel's honey returns I admit that my bees do not come anyway near his in terms of production, but I will say having inspected his that mine are just as nice to handle.
Its a great resource to gain information from each other and we often discuss how our bees are doing. Its a great shame the BBKA don't think to discuss with the membership about their experiences before they act in our name.
The BBKA need to consider that some members want to keep bees, some want to produce honey and some want something in the middle. Everyone's opinion should count.

Cheers, Mick.
 #2985  by mikemadf
 09 May 2019, 11:27
I am afraid to say I tend to ignore what the BBKA says on a number of issues. *( went to the 2018 ADM and was appalled. The 2019 one was better)

As a latecomer to beekeeping - 2010 - and a training in science- I was amused at how backward UK beekeeping was in many ways vs European ones- particularly bee breeding. But in other issues - the NBU for example - quite advanced.

As afar as I can see, the BBKA syllabus is orientated towards theoretical knowledge and not practical application of it.. And to talk regularly in its magazine about using matchsticks shows many of its writers still live in the nineteenth century before thermodynamics was invented..

I am by no means a great beekeeper - and started with TBHs which put me back several years - but even I can get quiet docile non swarmy bees without too much effort starting with bought in stock. Local bees are swarmy, bad tempered and without large honey yields. Only a fool - or a fanatic - would start breeding from them.
Rant over.
 #2987  by Jim Norfolk
 09 May 2019, 12:06
We are way off topic here but some good arguments raised. Here is my three ha'pence.

Up and down the country there are numerous local beekeepers who for years have been patiently improving their stock through selection. Keeping and breeding from their best and culling any with undesirable traits, such as aggression. I bought my first bees from just such local beeekeepers in 2008 and built up to 15 colonies all local and descendants of the original. I only once had an aggressive colony and that I requeened. I have since moved up here and started again with bees from a well estalished local beekeeper.

My point is this. There are a large number of beekeepers who have worked long and hard to establish relatively stable populations of local bees. Then along comes mister newbee with his imported wunderbees and they hybridise with the locals resulting in aggressive colonies. That is the reason BBKA says buy local bees.

And sorry I haven't yet read the booklet Gerry refers to but I am sure it contains a wealth of useful experience.
 #2991  by NigelP
 09 May 2019, 17:38
Jim Norfolk wrote:
09 May 2019, 12:06
My point is this. There are a large number of beekeepers who have worked long and hard to establish relatively stable populations of local bees. Then along comes mister newbee with his imported wunderbees and they hybridise with the locals resulting in aggressive colonies. That is the reason BBKA says buy local bees.
Jim, genetics tells you it is the other way round. It's the local bees influences on the wunderbees.
Because that is where the drones are coming from that the wunderbee virgin queens mates with.
By second generation the bees genome are 75% local and in my area this is reflected in them returning to local characteristics (nasty),
I'd be very interested to hear from anyone who lives in a region where the local bees are "gentle" and how that affects the F2 wundabee temperament. My bet is they are also gentle.
 #3004  by Jim Norfolk
 10 May 2019, 10:47
Good point Nigel, but it must be a 2 way street since the imports will produce drones which will hybridise with the locals. I am trying to find some research on hybridisation and aggression to try to understand the cause better. As I recall from something I read some time ago it is more than grumpy bees begat grumpiness. Have you found anything?
 #3005  by NigelP
 10 May 2019, 11:18
Actually it is a two way street.....there is a beekeeper near me who's hives have gone from all single to mainly double brood over the few years since he has moved them into the area (easily seen from road) . He is located about 1 mile flying distance from my Buckfast drones and is about 1/2 ,mile away from a friend of mine who I give a lot of my Buckfast F1's (which produce pure Buckfast drones). He is know to my mate and is dedicated "local bee" man and told my mate that his mating's and bees have never been so good since he moved them into this area. I really must stop and talk to him one day to see if there has been any colour changes or decrease in aggressiveness.....as I suspect he is getting his queens mated to my Buckfast drones which are the predominant drone population in the area.

I'm trying a simple experiment over the last next few years to see if I can increase my Buckfast x Buckfast crosses. It's not going to be rigorously policed but if all goes to plan many of my F2's might be nice and docile.
As Tautz and others have shown virgin queens rarely mated with drones from their own apiary site, preferring to travel further afield down "depressions of horizons"[ valleys] to other DCA's.
So I have set up a second apiary about 1/2 mile away down the valley which will provide drones (+honey)...and hopefully we shall get some better mated queens.....we shall see.
Last edited by NigelP on 10 May 2019, 11:24, edited 1 time in total.
 #3006  by NigelP
 10 May 2019, 11:22
There is some genetics behind aggressiveness. I shall have to have a look and report back. But there is a ying/yang interaction between the genetics of the worker bees and the pheromones of the queen. Both have influences on the overall temper of a hive..... Such that a gentle queen can be put into an aggressive hive and the bees become much calmer within hours....but move the same queen to a different aggressive hive and the worker bee genetics dominates and her presence in this hive has no effect.
It's complex and nothing is invariable.