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  • Best way of changing out a national to 14x12

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General Q&A, Bee chat and only Bee chat please
 #2402  by hilly
 19 Mar 2019, 20:56
What your thoughts on moving bees from national to 14x12 frames


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 #2404  by Chrisbarlow
 19 Mar 2019, 21:07
a doddle to do.

Put the 14x12 box with frames and foundation on top of the national brood (they have the same 46cm square foot print) and then wait for them to move up into the 14x*12.

A tip would be to feed to help them draw out the foundation with a rapid feeder, miller feeder, contact feeder, frame feeder, what ever you like. I would use a thick syrup but different folk have there own ideas.

and then when the queen is in there and laying and a good percentage of the frames are drawn out and have brood in swap the boxes round so the national brood is on top and stick a queen excluder in between. wait for any brood to hatch in the national brood and once it has, remove. simplz.
 #2405  by hilly
 19 Mar 2019, 21:48
Cheers Chris, it’s odd I thought about that way but didn’t think about the use of the queen excluder which now makes perfect sense


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 #2408  by MickBBKA
 19 Mar 2019, 22:56
Just do it as a Bailey comb change.

I wouldn't put the national brood over the 14x12 and QE though as there is a good chance they will then use it as a super and start filling it with nectar, which is ok if you want to use it as a super. Many honey farms don't use supers at all, just brood boxes above a QE.

Cheers, Mick.
 #2414  by AdamD
 21 Mar 2019, 13:29
I would refine the instructions a little:-

Yes, put the 14 x 12 box on top of the National brood box (no queen excluder) and feed to encourage the bees to draw out the foundation. You do need a decent colony and not do it too early in the year or they will struggle. Put some insulation over/around the feeder. This DOES make a difference to uptake as otherwise it will cool down overnight and won't be taken down so quickly.
Once they have started drawing comb, put the queen on her brood frame in the top box and continue to feed for, say, another week; her presence will encourage the bees to do more upstairs. Then move the National frame down below the excluder leaving the queen upstairs. It might take a few days for the bees to get the message that we want the queen to lay in the 14 x 12's but after a week or so there should be eggs and small larvae in the 14 x 12 frames.
Now is the time to use a small eke between the two boxes...

Check there are no queencells in the lower box (unlikely but you do need to check). Seal up the hive entrance. Place a queen excluder on top of the National brood box, then a small eke (say 25 mm high) with an entrance. The the 14 x 12 brood box goes on top with the queen in, of course. The colony will re-orientate to the new entrance and will concentrate their efforts in the 14 x 12 box. Continue to feed gently unless there is good income. With the National brood box down below, bees will move stores up (they like stores above their heads) and by the time the brood has emerged from the bottom box (21 days from the last laid egg, or 24 if there is drone brood) there should be almost no stores in the bottom brood box which can be removed entirely; the entrance opened and the hive put back to 'normal'

I have tried to force the colony to work upstairs straight away by putting the queen on foundation only above the excluder. However you will probably see that after a few days the queen is just wandering around on the queen excluder and not doing much - and she could be ignored and get cold. The process has worked but is a bit harsh on the colony and I wouldn't recommend it.
 #2426  by NigelP
 22 Mar 2019, 09:23
I would just stick all the frames from the National into the 14x12 box. Take out store bound ones and any unlaid/unnecessary ones and replace with 14 x12 frames with foundation and feed. Put all the frmaes to one side of the brood area and keep things moving in whilst moving the old National sized frames outwards and remove as brood emerges (and replace with 14 x12)
And yes they probably will add brace comb underneath the national frames, it's no big deal.
 #2429  by AdamD
 22 Mar 2019, 12:51
Bees will generally build comb where you don't want it - under the deep frames - and you still have to get rid of them at some time which is why I would prefer to get the job done early as a Baily comb exchange rather than have shallower frames in the hive for some time. But I agree your method would also work.
 #2433  by NigelP
 22 Mar 2019, 13:27
I'd never do it that way because I would never use 14 x 12's. :twisted:
It takes you down a quite inflexible avenue, similar to brood and a half.
If your queens are fecund enough to need that sized brood box then far better (IMHO) to go for double brood. It gives you oodles more options, not least being able to move frames around between boxes to manage the colony size. You can reduce back down to one brood and move to flows where you don't want more foraging bees but less bee looking after brood. Swarm control via Snelgrove or Demarree ...you already have your two brood boxes on site... IMHO 14 x 12's are not a well thought out system when it comes to the practicality and management of bees.
 #2442  by AdamD
 23 Mar 2019, 09:02
A fecund queen will produce more brood than a single 14 x 12 can cope with, so you are then faced with the prospect of having a box that's too small or using a second brood box - and there are probably few beekeepers who would relish doing a Demaree and putting a 14 x 12 above 3 or 4 supers on top of a queen in a lower 14 x 12 as an example. I did try them for a couple of years and decided against and prefer the management of 2 Nationals (or WBC's for that matter).
There was a long piece in a BBKA magazine 2 or 3 years ago extolling the virtues of brood and a half. It didn't persuade me then and I have to admit that I have never tried it.