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General Q&A, Bee chat and only Bee chat please
 #12247  by JoJo36
 03 Dec 2021, 07:00
I don't understand the "black bees mantra" being superior to other varieties as surely a mixed gene pool ie "diverse" spectrum of positive attributes is far better than keeping limited local "black" bees which are often swarmy and have other negative attributes??!!
I don't think we ever hear two sides of the argument just the usual reminder of what BIBBA thinks is best for us??!!
:)
 #12248  by AdamD
 03 Dec 2021, 09:08
I have a copy of Rogers book that was published a few years ago. Yes he does have opinions but I guess like a lot of us, they have been developed over time as what works for him.
One of the BIBBA guys wrote in the BBKA magazine a couple of months ago and the thrust was more for locally adapted bees rather than of a specific colour.

I see there are loads of webinars on the BIBBA website to look at. Many by Roger, but there are others too. Maybe worth a look if anyone is at a loose end over the winter.
 #12249  by NigelP
 03 Dec 2021, 09:28
JoJo36 wrote:
03 Dec 2021, 07:00
I don't understand the "black bees mantra" being superior to other varieties as surely a mixed gene pool ie "diverse" spectrum of positive attributes is far better than keeping limited local "black" bees which are often swarmy and have other negative attributes??!!
I don't think we ever hear two sides of the argument just the usual reminder of what BIBBA thinks is best for us??!!
:)
I've always maintained that keeping local bees is very area dependent. In some areas they are fine and prolific, Adam and Mick's areas spring to mind. My area they are non fecund, aggressive and very swarmy and not worth keeping. Although that is slowly changing as I inadvertently introduce my good genetics into the local area. Now the locals tend to be fecund but aggressive and swarmy.....so that's 1/3 solved :D
What I find quite interesting is that Beowulf Cooper The original founder of BIBBA ( Was called Village Bee Breeders Association) had noted exactly the same . Different areas had bees with different characteristics and that generally as one went from west to east the temper increased. This was published in his book "The honey bees of the British Isles".
Where I get really annoyed is the blanket dogma from BIBBA (and others) that we should all keep local bees. If we did it would condemn many of us to some pretty miserable and unpleasant beekeeping.
I also get really annoyed at the misinformation they spread about imports and the designer, made in Britain Buckfast, hybrid strains. Jo Widicome (past president of BIBBA) argued vehemently with me several years ago that Buckfast bees were nothing more than an Italian Carniolan cross. Such ignorance from such an influential person in that organisation left me rather shocked .
 #12252  by Patrick
 03 Dec 2021, 11:59
It's the old problem of what someone means by "normal". Our local bees are generally ok but do throw up occasional horrors in terms of temperament. Its what happens then which is the issue - far too many folk just back off and hope it will magically improve, when they need to stop it in its tracks and proactively sort it out. If they all did then our communal drones would presumably also improve.

I have no personal experience of "native" black bees to meaningfully comment, but what I have read does not sound universally wonderful.
 #12253  by AdamD
 03 Dec 2021, 12:48
In Eire, there's a bill going through their parliament to ban the importation of non-native honeybees.
I don't know if this was stirred up by the large number of bees going through that country earlier this year from Italy?
 #12254  by Alfred
 03 Dec 2021, 19:14
"My area they are non fecund, aggressive and very swarmy and not worth keeping"
Ditto that Nigel 100%
Less than 1/10 local swarms have ever filled a brood box before attempting escape.
The few that actually produce the goods are less than happy to give it away.
Next year is my fourth and it's time I stopped messing and made a go of it.
So I have options limited to tolerating it and splitting them or buy in cheap queens.
 #12255  by MickBBKA
 04 Dec 2021, 00:47
Keeping so called 'Black Bees' may be great if you keep bees for a hobby or are interested in trying to rebuild a population of bees that probably don't exist anymore, I have never heard of anyone keeping black bees so they could get a good honey crop. It all depends on your objectives. The BBKA should represent the objectives of all the membership not just the clique.
 #12258  by JoJo36
 04 Dec 2021, 07:35
I'm thinking of buying a nice new queen next year and considering Nigel's type (I'll scroll through messages to find the name again) or "black mountain" ones sold by Lawrence the beekeeper in Wales who produce loads of honey. I really like his videos and find them interesting especially over winter when my own bees are huddled (or dead)!!! :)
 #12259  by thewoodgatherer
 05 Dec 2021, 08:34
Ok so having stumbled on this post and it’s very biased views and having a few hives of black AMM I’d like to put the other side to this. I have both hybrid x /local and pure AMM and honey production wise living in an oilseed rape area I haven’t seen any difference, in fact this year one of the blacks produced the most at 160lbs.
Essentially I’m in the school of thought that nature knows best and the black bee is the result of millions of years of adaption to the northern hemisphere, along with this is the view that it would be a shame to lose this unique species. I’m with BIBBA on much of this.
If your of the view that man can make a better honeybee by crossing species then that’s your view and you will believe you have succeeded. Im not so sure that nature is as simple as this and the results don’t come with cavities. The main problem I see is the second generation defensiveness which occurs with hybrid queens.
At the end of the day my AMM are good strong bees with very stable and reliable traits that are well adapted to our climate, winter on very low levels of stores, produce good amounts of honey etc, what more do you want.

The biggest problem I have is beekeepers buying hybrid queens and messing up the local gene pool.
 #12260  by NigelP
 05 Dec 2021, 15:15
thewoodgatherer wrote:
05 Dec 2021, 08:34
The main problem I see is the second generation defensiveness which occurs with hybrid queens.
Always good to have another point if view.
The so called second generation aggressiveness only seems to appear in areas where the local bees themselves are aggressive. If you work out the simple genetics you will find the 2nd generation bees now have 75% of their genes from the "local" drones and they are to all intent and purposes local bees. Which in my area is a very good argument for not keeping local bees.
I kept Amm's for a few years, obtained from Jon Getty in Northern Ireland and ran them side by side with my "exotics" and the result was quite clear the Amm's, although nice to work with, only produced a third as much honey sat side by side in the same apiary. But oh! the whiteness of the combs was of show standard.
Where are you getting your Amm's from Woodgatherer? I'd be interested in trying some again.