Compulsory Registration - Can it be far off?

[AndrewLD]

But heavens above not a Haynes manual.
There ok as a VERY rough practical guide, but even having used them in regards to cars and motorcycles as well as guitars. I would not for a second call myself a mechanic or luthier just because i had read one a few times to get answers or direction on specific thing i needed to look up now and then.

You clearly do not know the book which was authored by Claire and Adrian Waring - highly respected beekeepers.
The Haynes manual was chosen because of it its logical structure, clear format, excellent illustrations and photographs - and for the fact that it keeps to the essential basics, which is all that it is possible to deliver in a reasonable timescale. It was a practical choice and has proven very popular with our beginners.

[AndrewLD]

Andrew I'll take a little issue with this point as one of the many misguided examples. offered by associations....if you don't mind .
In my local area the the local bees are ferocious, frequent swarmer's , poor honey gatherers and if the queen laid 5 frames of broods she was a keeper. I would not recommend anyone keeping the local bees in my area, textbook advice or not.. No universal textbook advice from me.

I referred to what we do in Cambridgshire where the bees are not usually as difficult as the ones you describe - our advice is therefore sound. The textbook's advice most likely holds good for the majority of the country but local associations are always free to issue a caveat for local circumstance.
Training courses take a lot of organisation and thought - key to their success is manageable chunks of information delivered in the right order and continuity of message but I suspect that nothing would satisfy you.
If you go through a course constantly undermining what the textbook chosen by the association says then you left with nothing but individual opinion. There is no foundation on which the beginners can build. It's like the idiot that starts an advanced training course with the words "Forget what you were told, now I am going to tell you how it is really done" thus undermining all that has gone before - and the person is too stupid to see that the trainees then wonder what weight they can put on what that person then says.

[NigelP]

Nigel' <are s docile as the Buckfast bees I keep >

No such things these days. All now mongrels since Bro Adam didn't bother to look to Ireland where Amm was still the native honeybee as it was in the U.K.

We only have Apis mellifera mellifera in the RoI but the odd twit will try and import the odd so called 'Buckfast.'

I'll accept that in the U.K. there are now many breeders trying to produce something similar to Adam's Buckfasts but they are not true Buckfasts.

However , Bro. Adam successfully branded 'Buckfast' and while his target was to get back to something akin to Amm, he didn't quite get there. Nice bees by all accounts but with a massive importation of Apis mellifera Lingusta queens U.K. bees were doomed to become mongrels.

But if you think you have Buckfast honeybees and it keeps you happy, work away.

The different Buckfast strains and lines are well understood by anyone who takes the time and trouble to investigate them. The breeders are all registered and the crosses they perform are publicly documented.
If you think BR Adam's target was to get back to "something akin to Amm"....you have never obviously read any of his books nor have you any idea what he was trying to achieve. This page from the Republic of Ireland Buckfast breeders might be of help for you.
http://www.beekeeping.ie/html/f_a_q.html
.

[NigelP]

I referred to what we do in Cambridgshire where the bees are not usually as difficult as the ones you describe - our advice is therefore sound.

But only for Cambridgeshire?...it is not sound for many parts of the UK. You don't have to travel far to find differences in bee temperament. Around my area 20-30 miles gives give you vast differences. It's a refusal to understand that not far away bees can be very different I find hard to understand. Even the most ardent "local bees are best fan", Beowulf Cooper acknowledged that the good nature of bees declined significantly as you went west to east in the UK.
But many seem stuck in this rut of thinking what applies in my immediate area applies everywhere, it doesn't and the advice can be very detrimental when teaching beekeeping courses, with many beekeepers giving up when the association recommended local bees turn nasty. I've seen it happen too many times to ignore it.

[AdamD]

I too have heard of poor teaching - I have to say that in Norfolk the association teaches through Easton College - an agricultural college - with a good class-room based and practical course. I can understand the idea of using one book as a reference - the Haynes one is something that I don't own so I can't comment on it although I do have another book by the Warings which is sound - from my recollection and opinion. [Note I say opinion as there are many opinions in beekeeping - hence many of the arguments]. (They wrote many books and the material must be pretty similar!).

I am not a teacher of beekeeping but I recall Roger P commenting on the fact that some students just 'got it' and some took a a long time to understand the craft - I guess that you can't always blame the teachers.

[AdamD]

If anyone want to read up on Brother Adam, his book "Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey" is a good read.

I breed my local mongrels which do OK. I would not describe the techniques used by Buckfast breeders as producing mongrels and Buckfasts were never intended to emulate amm's despite some useful qualities they had.

[AndrewLD]

Nigel, I give up. I think you are arguing for the sake of it. You run your beginner's course how you want to run it.

[NigelP]

Arguing Andrew...?? Far from it. What I'm trying to do is make anyone who run courses (I take my hat off to them, including you) to think a little more about the content of their teaching. Rather than follow the dictates of a book...get down, get practical and get dirty...Tell it as it is .
For example does the course you run have good advice as to what to do when you do come across the colony from hell? I'll bet, despite your claimed gentle colonies in Cambridgeshire, someone will have the occasional hive(s) from hell. The usual pap advice is re-queen. Do you have good re-queening methodology included?
I hope you can see where I'm aiming. Most of the ex-beekeepers I know gave up because of the temper of the bee they kept. A real problem for the new guy on the block .

[Bobbysbees]

NigelP as a beginner and as such having search online a little on what to do when a colony turns nasty. It was my understanding that, baring pest activity around/in your hives and assuming you have checked that a queen is present and the brood pattern is good and the queen IS the one you started with and not a supersedure or as i say older and failing.
That requeening and slowing a couple or so brood cycles, too allow time for genetics to be eeplace ;was pretty much the option left.
Also taking in to account store levels/necter flow/pollen coming in as well as weather.
If not...
What other factors or remedy would you advise?
As iv said im just learning.

[NigelP]

No those are the steps, that is what is generally taught. Well done, What is often not taught are the practical issues with accomplishing it. That is where the difficulty starts.

Okay the hive from hell bees attacking you as soon as open the lid and you need to find the queen. And I know from past experience in those circumstances it is very difficult to find the queen.
What is worth knowing is that the aggressive bees are the older foragers, so if you move that hive off to a different location and leave a another empty hive in its place and come back tomorrow or a few days later. The hive with the queen in will now be like pussy cats and much easier experience to try and find the queen.
Still can't find her....it happens happened to me last year.
Okay you take another brood box, remove every frame and shake all the bees into the original brood box, put 2 new frames together in that box,, nothing with brood in. Now stick a queen excluder on top and put the second brood box on top and replace all the frames in this box. Nurse bees will move to brood and tomorrow morning you will find the queen on one of the inner sides of the two frames in the lower box.
Still can't see her....take this box a long way away and somewhere deserted and throw the lot out....

As for re-queening that is huge topic with lots of pitfalls. What I can tell you is nasty bees are difficult to requeen, they seem reluctant to accept new genetics.