BBKA Forum

British Beekeepers Association Official Forum 

  • Large colonies

  • General Q&A, Bee chat and only Bee chat please
General Q&A, Bee chat and only Bee chat please
 #9430  by Chrisbarlow
 06 Nov 2020, 18:14
Sipa wrote:
06 Nov 2020, 13:49
This should wet your appetite.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-017-0526-2
That's an excellent read. It's interesting they refer to trickling and not vaping.

A brood break could be used to not only kill varroa but maintain a honey and pollen stores during a dearth
 #9432  by Ian123
 07 Nov 2020, 16:04
I’ve never had a colony fail in the winter from being to large it’s normally the opposite. How much feed had they and when did you stop feeding I’m likely to be topping some up till the end of this month. As for creating a brood break we have a natural 1 called winter. Whilst in some cases some may suspect a little brood rearing continues, I would suggest that’s rare and I look to confirm!!
 #9433  by Chrisbarlow
 07 Nov 2020, 17:48
Ian123 wrote:
07 Nov 2020, 16:04
I’ve never had a colony fail in the winter from being to large it’s normally the opposite. How much feed had they and when did you stop feeding I’m likely to be topping some up till the end of this month. As for creating a brood break we have a natural 1 called winter. Whilst in some cases some may suspect a little brood rearing continues, I would suggest that’s rare and I look to confirm!!
A beekeeper chap in the early 70ies did a paper on brood breaks in winter.

He was based in Aberdeen from memory and checked every colony every month through winter to see check for brood. Every month he found brood in his colonies. Annoyingly i can't find the paper

My view is the opposite, I suspect (believe) very few colonies have a complete brood break in winter. I suspect at any given time there will always be a small of brood in a colony.
 #9435  by Ian123
 07 Nov 2020, 21:06
Chriss with respect rather than suspecting why not check, back in very early 2000 an Italian beek put me onto oxalic shall we say hive bleaching;) Over those early years I checked a good few colonies during the winter. So with my bees and area I’ll stick with what I said. I’ve also had a friend who ran thermostats in a number of hives over a few years, he ran carniolans and we generally found a spike in hive temps mid to late Jan. I’ll post up this year when I find most have stopped rearing if weather permits I find the nub announcements a little premature. Ian
 #9439  by Chrisbarlow
 08 Nov 2020, 20:04
Ian123 wrote:
07 Nov 2020, 21:06
Chriss with respect rather than suspecting why not check,
I have no desire to expose my frames of bees to the cold, whether there is brood or not, I cant see it changing any overwintering. strategies at this time. I will still vape in December, If I thought knowing about brood would change my strategy, then I can see value.
 #9440  by Ian123
 08 Nov 2020, 21:33
If you are vaping winter time then not knowing if they are broodless or not is a rather big flaw in your Strategy. As for not exposing your bees in winter they handle it very well if done correctly, your in a fortunate position that others at some point have so you can form your vape winter strategy!
 #9441  by Chrisbarlow
 08 Nov 2020, 22:41
Ian123 wrote:
08 Nov 2020, 21:33
If you are vaping winter time then not knowing if they are broodless or not is a rather big flaw in your Strategy. As for not exposing your bees in winter they handle it very well if done correctly, your in a fortunate position that others at some point have so you can form your vape winter strategy!
I dont see this as a flaw, I believe they are brood-rite at all times. the question for me is when do I believe they have the least amount of brood and I believe they will have the least amount of brood in November/December. By vaping in these months, the will lead to the maximum reduction of mites in the colony possible, just not 100%, as no miticide has a 100% efficacy, that's a non issue.

I wasn't suggesting either that the bees don't handle winter exposure well or otherwise, I am suggesting that why do something, that isn't required and unduly stresses a colony more than is required.

You are correct about me being in a fortunate position in that others have done (as are you), so I can base my winter strategy on their experiences. from what I have observed in beekeeping, everything has been done before and nothing is new, just either known or rediscovered. I try and make my beekeeping decisions based on some semblance of research, although this isn't always the case as I have to agree, sometime I just want to try some thing out for the experience.
 #9442  by Patrick
 09 Nov 2020, 10:25
Chrisbarlow wrote: ..sometime I just want to try some thing out for the experience.
Absolutely. The nature of the written word is it does tend to come across as rather definitive and the longer I keep bees the less definitive I feel 😁. No sooner has any rule been defined than the many “exceptions” become apparent.

Eventually we start to enter the realm of marginal gains. I once sought to find the sweet spot of a broodless period but am coming to the conclusion that in the Southwest at least, any broodless period is probably pretty short. The only way to definitively know without remote sensing might be to go into all hives regularly over a period of weeks. Problem is, I am not convinced all hives would behave the same nor every winter be similar.

So the question might be is making an educated guess around midwinter treatment significantly disadvantaging the bees?

I admit I am not a fan of regularly disturbing frames in winter without good reason, but I am happy to also admit that is partly cultural and personal. I like to give them and me some time off. I don’t think it does a lot of harm going in quickly, but I am not convinced how critical it is to do in this context.

Stepping back, maybe the question is if there turned out to be no broodless period, would I not winter treat at all? If the answer is, yes of course I would, so maybe many beekeepers are taking a bit of a pragmatic punt on the marginal gain of minimal brood over no brood may not be sufficiently critical?
 #9444  by Chrisbarlow
 09 Nov 2020, 12:26
I suspect two main points that would affect colony brood or brood less in winter would be geography and genetics.

I suspect the further south you are the the chances of brood less should decline

Colony genetics, which for most are untraceable, even when buying in queens from reputable dealers/breeders should play an enormous part in brood presence or absence during winter.
 #9445  by NigelP
 09 Nov 2020, 13:10
If there is brood your brood nest will be at 32-35C, so a simple cordless thermometer will tell you what is likely to be going on or not as the case may be. IIRC there is usually a sharp increase in hive temperature shortly after the winter solstice to 32/35 when brood rearing starts in earnest.