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  • Thomas Seeley on Treatment Free

  • General Q&A, Bee chat and only Bee chat please
General Q&A, Bee chat and only Bee chat please
 #8999  by Chrisbarlow
 23 Sep 2020, 18:51
huntsman. wrote:
23 Sep 2020, 14:59
<Treatment free bees are the future but I suspect they'll still be a long way off.>

I don't agree for one moment but if you are correct, imagine how easy beekeeping would be, you would need to know bugger all. Just collect the honey, if you get any honey.
Up until thirty years ago, they were treatment free i.e. pre varroa. Why shouldn't beekeeping bee easy.

As for potential, I suspect it's still an extremely long way off in the way I want my bees to be but pre varroa the honey bee had Braula coeca, it lived on honey bees and honey bees just carried on regardless. So there is a precedence for mites being in colonies and not being detrimental to the colonies welfare.

There are several reports from across the planet of treatment free honey bees now but they all seem to be small, swarmy and aggressive colonies. Far from ideal
 #9003  by NigelP
 24 Sep 2020, 11:46
Patrick wrote:
22 Sep 2020, 16:30
I own several Professor Seeley books but on this topic, widely aired, I really think he has drifted into intellectual self indulgence rather than practical application.
Yes, he should really stick to studying swarming where his work excels. Any commercial beekeeper finding he lost a 1/3 of his hives each winter and the survivors tended to be small and swarmy would be on the road to ruin. Okay for a tenure track Prof who doesn't require any income from honey to say this, but as you say Patrick, not a very practical approach for many.
 #9050  by Beeblebrox
 01 Oct 2020, 16:01
I assume this is the same article that appeared in NBH

You misrepresent what he said. He has been trialling 3 different strains of varroa resistant bee.

All but one of the ones from one breeder failed (that's the 30%)

The wild ones local to him, and some Primorski bees from a Texan breeder are fine.

He's only one year into a multi year trial - these are preliminary results. The take home message is that it looks like when breeders aim for one super trait (grooming, honey yield etc) it is diluted to ineffectiveness as son as the bees supersede and mix with other strains. But the naturally evolved resistance, which tends to work on many different traits nudged a bit higher, is stable.
 #9055  by NigelP
 01 Oct 2020, 19:31
My original post was reporting directly from the article he wrote in ABJ. And having just rechecked it I can confirm that his 30% reported losses relate to three years with standard local strains and he is one year into trials with 3 different strains; locals, Webster Russians and VSH Italian .....as I stated in my original post. So no misrepresentation of his work.
As Seeley himself writes, one year is insufficient time to draw any firm conclusions from the 3 x strains he is using. Although in a very unscientific manner he does so with lots of speculation.
Perhaps NBH (whoever they are) have reported it wrongly?
 #9073  by MickBBKA
 05 Oct 2020, 01:46
Have you read his 'The lives of bees' book folks ? There is a very good chapter which details treatment free keeping in Norway I think it was ( don't quote me ) It wasn't a trial by him but it just allowed the bees to live without interference and let nature take its course with over 100 colonies in the study. The initial results were quite devastating but the bees did survive varroa although the colony numbers were very low dropping to about 20 colonies. Its worth reading. I think in my opinion if you were just a hobby keeper it could be a way forward but I think you wouldn't give it a second thought if you wanted to make any money from the bees even just to cover your costs.

Also I think if you left your dog or cat covered in parasites you wouldn't be thought of kindly by anyone, why should we think any less of our pets ( Bees)...

Cheers, Mick.
 #9083  by Chrisbarlow
 05 Oct 2020, 17:46
I think this is what you might be referring to Mick.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/42384375_Survival_of_mite_infested_Varroa_destructor_honey_bee_Apis_mellifera_colonies_in_a_Nordic_climate
 #9084  by NigelP
 05 Oct 2020, 18:35
MickBBKA wrote:
05 Oct 2020, 01:46
Have you read his 'The lives of bees' book folks ?
Not yet...but Amazon will deliver a copy tomorrow.
I worry ,given his recent writings into treatment free, that he is indulging lofty scientific ideals rather than embracing the practical needs of what most hobby beekeepers need from their bees.
And forget about it if you keep bees for income.
 #9086  by AndrewLD
 05 Oct 2020, 19:03
NigelP wrote:
05 Oct 2020, 18:35
I worry ,given his recent writings into treatment free, that he is indulging lofty scientific ideals rather than embracing the practical needs of what most hobby beekeepers need from their bees.
And forget about it if you keep bees for income.
Nigel, can you be in both camps?
With a wife who comes from a farming family, I have always respected the aspirations and needs of both; as long as they do not adversely impact on the other. Given your migration of bees, reports on sales, views on beginner training, and your hive numbers: can you say that you are a hobbyist or now know what a hobbyist looks for?

Roger Patterson has just had an article published in the BBKA News that laments the ignorance of beekeepers new to the "craft" but behind it I see an upsurge in people wanting to keep bees in as natural a way as possible. The challenge for the BBKA is to accommodate this desire whilst guiding newcomers so that the best interests of the bees and (in this crowded isle) their neighbours are best served.

I know that on our beginner's courses we have had a change in the reason newcomers want to keep bees. It would be easy to say it is idealistic or perhaps, naïve but it is wrong? I am not sure it is. Making it work is what we need to focus on.
 #9089  by NigelP
 05 Oct 2020, 19:48
Easy, the question never asked of people entering the wonderful world of beekeeping is what do they want out of it!!
Courses are one dimensional in their teaching with the teachers viewpoint's accepted as de rigour.... I had to resign from my local association as a talk I was giving about varroa control included vaporised oxalic acid, I was told I couldn't talk about this method. I refused and resigned.