BBKA Forum

British Beekeepers Association Official Forum 

  • Possible Queenless Hive

  • Beginners forum, ask beekeeping related questions and get help from other experienced beekeepers. Please use the Search Feature please to avoid duplicated threads
Beginners forum, ask beekeeping related questions and get help from other experienced beekeepers. Please use the Search Feature please to avoid duplicated threads
 #7274  by gwt_uk
 21 May 2020, 21:44
Hello all - I am in my second year of beekeeping and currently have 3 colonies.
2 of the colonies are doing well but the third may have run into trouble. I was late in inspecting due to the lockdown.

The problem hive is on a double brood - The top box is jam packed full of honey and pollen and the bottom box is completely empty although it looks as though all the cells have been polished. There are no eggs, no larvae and no brood of any kind. it has a very strong population (much larger than my other colonies) and they were a bit defensive when I inspected.

I have taken a frame of eggs, larvae and capped brood from another colony and will see if they produce queen cells. I am thinking the Queen may have died.

An experienced beekeeper has suggested inspecting after 7 days but I may not be able to get over there for a fortnight.

I had a problem last year with laying workers so know what to look for from that perspective.

Does anyone else have any suggestions/ideas about a course of action?

Thanks in advance for your help.
 #7277  by stechad
 21 May 2020, 22:16
Hi,
It will be around 7 days for a queen cell to be capped then another six days before the queen emerges, about 5 days , weather dependant before she goes on mating flights. so I wouldn't worry too much about leaving them for 2 weeks.
Be aware that you should definitely leave them alone for at least 7 days as the queen is very sensitive to being moved around just after being capped.
Good luck
Steve
 #7281  by Patrick
 21 May 2020, 22:52
Welcome to the Forum GWT.

You say you may have a problem seeing your bees for a while. Do you manage 7 day inspections normally or does life get in the way occasionally? It’s entirely reasonable.

The reason I ask is that the commonest cause of queenless ness this time of year is our good friend swarming. I note the top box was rammed with stores which may have meant they were good to go- it’s been very swarmy weather this year. If you miss a couple of weeks it is possible for cells to have been raised, the queen left and a virgin is now wandering about the hive. If all the remaining capped brood had emerged (at maybe a thousand or more a day) it quickly refills the hive with adult bees and seems unlikely at a glance to conceivably have swarmed.

Meanwhile, some worker bees very quickly remove all signs of the empty cell and others the virgin may have killed and we are left none the wiser anything happened.

It’s the fact you have empty polished cells suggests you already have a (non laying yet) queen in there. Commonly, a really hopelessly queenless colony will store nectar and pollen in the brood frames as they know there is no other use for it. Also some defensiveness is quite likely. A really hopelessly queenless colony can be a total shocker.

I wouldn’t be surprised if when you get to see them your test frame is all capped or emerged brood and, cross fingers, you find some eggs as well. Let us know what you find. :)
 #7283  by gwt_uk
 21 May 2020, 23:06
Thanks for the advice. Very helpful. The lockdown has caused a bit of an issue and my colonies are a bit of a distance away (will be looking for more local options for next year).

The top brood box was extremely heavy and loaded with honey and pollen. The bottom had absolutely nothing in it at all.

Once mated (fingers crossed) would a new queen lay in the bottom box or would I need to put this on top?
 #7284  by stechad
 21 May 2020, 23:12
more than likely bottom box as there is space in there, you will need to re-arrange the hive once she has started laying.
Sorry, I don't know your situation, but you do know you are allowed to tend to your hives as they are livestock.
 #7286  by Patrick
 22 May 2020, 08:24
Don’t worry about it gwt. I managed bees at distance myself and it’s not always easy in normal times.
 #7288  by AndrewLD
 22 May 2020, 09:10
A queen may emerge on day 16 but is not mature until day 20 and will usually mate between day 25 and 31 and then has to come into lay - so it all takes longer than you might think and weather can delay mating, so it's all a bit fluid. I usually convince myself a colony is queenless only to find there's one in there after all.....

This is a stressful time for a colony and defensive bees can be queenless or just worried you are about to screw things up for them. This is perhaps one of those times to do exactly what you proposed with a test frame and then sit on your hands.

Following a week of swarming almost to the point of destruction I had to go back into hives I had thought were OK. The discovery of sealed queen cells but with at least two queen still in the hives, took me down the route of shaking frames, culling the remaining QC's (damage to queen in a sealed QC is then too risky to rely on) and fall back on walkaway splits. I am now looking at the hives in question and watching very carefully what they are doing on the landing board. With the exception of one hive that is still running around the landing board and looking very disorganised, the others are either settled or settling down - so my gut feeling is that that is the hive that has ended up queenless. I'll look at that at the weekend but I am going to leave the others whilst they get sorted out.....
 #7289  by NigelP
 22 May 2020, 09:13
gwt_uk wrote:
21 May 2020, 23:06
Thanks for the advice. Very helpful. The lockdown has caused a bit of an issue and my colonies are a bit of a distance away (will be looking for more local options for next year).
You might not be aware but beekeepers are legally allowed to travel to out apiaries and attend their bees during the lockdown. They are classed as livestock and must be looked after.