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Winter stores above or below broodbox?

PostPosted:11 Aug 2019, 09:28
by Adam Bee
So. At our association apiary, we will be reducing our hives down to the basic brood ball. For various reasons (dosing, etc.) I’ve added a queen excluder and I’m compressing the brood down into 2 x 190 boxes. I have one box that’s pretty much all honey and one that’s half full. For various reasons (wired DN4 frames, etc.) I’m going to keep the full box as winter stores.

I’ve read two opinions (as there can’t really be more): put these stores on top of the brood boxes and put these stores under the brood boxes.

If you’re keeping a box a stores for winter, where do you put your stores? Over or under the brood box? And why?

I’ll be taking these boxes off, by the way, during treatment to prevent any thymol contamination, and returning the stores afterwards.

Let me know how you feel.

Re: Winter stores above or below broodbox

PostPosted:11 Aug 2019, 11:00
by Patrick
So.. the winter cluster (if it gets cold enough to cluster - many of our winters down south have been so warm for the last 20 years they have not clustered as historically would have been assumed. Up North maybe less true), usually moves up over the course of the winter.

So if you put the box you want to remove empty of stores and bees by the spring underneath, it may be possible to simply take it away in March.

If you put it on above then there may well be brood in it in the spring.

Six of one and half a dozen of the other probably.

Re: Winter stores above or below broodbox?

PostPosted:11 Aug 2019, 13:16
by Caroline
On my single brood hives I ensure there's sufficient stores in the BC, then if there's a super with late stores in it that have not been extracted, I put the super under the BC, and come spring the bees have cleared it.

On my double brood hive, the nest is in the bottom BC, extra stores in the top BC, ensure no QE between boxes. If there's a super with stores then, as above, it goes below the bottom BC.

Re: Winter stores above or below broodbox?

PostPosted:11 Aug 2019, 23:15
by Chrisbarlow
It's doesn't matter imo. Above or below then the bees will find it. I've done both.

The only thing that matters is having enough stores.

Some one on the South coast of England I suspect will need less stores than some one in northern Scotland as the Scottish Cold weather goes on for longer meaning less forage available at certain times of the year.

So the bees will need more stores than what's in the just a super

Re: Winter stores above or below broodbox?

PostPosted:11 Aug 2019, 23:18
by Chrisbarlow
If you super then come spring, if there is brood in there, put the queen in the brood box and a queen excluder on top of the brood box and then the super.

If you nadir ( put the super underneath) then there is less chance of the queen laying in there as she tends to move up. However this is not guaranteed. However revert to queen excluder suggestion as above

Re: Winter stores above or below broodbox?

PostPosted:12 Aug 2019, 01:32
by MickBBKA
Chrisbarlow wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 23:15
Some one on the South coast of England I suspect will need less stores than some one in northern Scotland as the Scottish Cold weather goes on for longer meaning less forage available at certain times of the year.
So the bees will need more stores than what's in the just a super
Way too simple suggestion..... Someone on the South coast may need more food if their bees don't have a brood break, don't cluster and are active all winter. Bees further North could be clustered for longer, cold weather meaning lower metabolic rate so less food consumption, a brood break requires less food for the larvae and thus less bees to feed. Its a very subjective area of debate. Personally I don't find winter an issue, its Spring that raises the biggest problems.

Cheers, Mick.

Re: Winter stores above or below broodbox?

PostPosted:12 Aug 2019, 07:40
by Chrisbarlow
MickBBKA wrote:
12 Aug 2019, 01:32
Chrisbarlow wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 23:15
Some one on the South coast of England I suspect will need less stores than some one in northern Scotland as the Scottish Cold weather goes on for longer meaning less forage available at certain times of the year.
So the bees will need more stores than what's in the just a super
Way too simple suggestion..... Someone on the South coast may need more food if their bees don't have a brood break, don't cluster and are active all winter. Bees further North could be clustered for longer, cold weather meaning lower metabolic rate so less food consumption, a brood break requires less food for the larvae and thus less bees to feed. Its a very subjective area of debate. Personally I don't find winter an issue, its Spring that raises the biggest problems.

Cheers, Mick.
Definitely a simple view of things but I believe still correct.

If the bees find it warm enough to carry on brood rearing and not clustering then chances are they will also have access to forager longer, much longer , for instance balsam or ivy and earlier , so winter and spring flowers will not only be flowering but also be accessible to them.

You and I both have spring flowers flowering at roughly the same time , ok maybe a week apart but the question is can the bees access them.

I still believe colder climates need more stores than warmer ones.

Re: Winter stores above or below broodbox?

PostPosted:12 Aug 2019, 09:01
by AdamD
The 'standard view' is that you need 8 frames of stores to overwinter a colony however this does not take into account
a) Location - as Mick has pointed out.
b) The type of bee. - Some bees keep large clusters over winter and use a lot of winter fuel
c) The type of hive. Polyhives or insulated wooden ones are better.
All of the above can affect food consumption. So does the weather of course!
Looking at the 8 frames of stores, thing, that would leave insufficient space for bees as I would not be expecting my colonies to have only 2 or 3 frames of brood come the end of September.
For me, large colonies over the summer will stay in two brood boxes. Smaller ones will have a super of honey/stores and I put this underneath around the end of September. It's only smaller colonies that would stay in just one brood box - say a nuc that has grown well during August and September.
http://www.norfolkbee.co.uk/beekeepers-FAQ/winter-preparation

Re: Winter stores above or below broodbox?

PostPosted:12 Aug 2019, 13:10
by Adam Bee
Thanks everyone for all the info. It really helps. The “super it and get brood in it” was the best help. The “8 frames of stores” as a guide also helps a lot. I’m in Hertfordshire, so not too cold. I expect 2 brood boxes and the one box of stores should be enough. I guess we’ll find out as the learning experience continues!

Thanks again.

Re: Winter stores above or below broodbox?

PostPosted:12 Aug 2019, 16:08
by NigelP
Chrisbarlow wrote:
12 Aug 2019, 07:40

I still believe colder climates need more stores than warmer ones.
I'll add in an extra complication to the equation...poly hives vs wooden. Which I now note Adam has already raised.
Regardless of climate bees in poly hives use less stores overwinter. I ran the two hive types side by side many moons ago and generally this is true...but not always......as I had a couple of poly hives that ate their way through all their stores last winter and needed fondant.
I've come to look at it as a hive by hive basis.....each hive needing a separate appraisal.