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  • Queenless nuc - how long do I have?

  • Beginners forum, ask beekeeping related questions and get help from other experienced beekeepers. Please use the Search Feature please to avoid duplicated threads
Beginners forum, ask beekeeping related questions and get help from other experienced beekeepers. Please use the Search Feature please to avoid duplicated threads
 #8132  by Bubnov
 06 Jul 2020, 18:53
Hello all, I'm a new member and new beekeeper. I have 2 colonies: one is not long hived and is fine but perhaps slow, the other is a nuc I hived today.

I've had the new nuc less than a week. I was delayed hiving them but had a brief look early on. I saw they had space and didn't inspect properly.
I moved them over today. Their population is strong, but they were extremely agitated, not at all like the other colony in similar weather. I was disturbed that I saw no brood! Loads of backfilling, but no sign of the queen(marked) or any queen cells. (It's possible that the population and angriness of this colony put me and my untrained eyes off enough to miss a bit of capped brood, so I'll be double checking.)

Even my beginner calculations are telling me that if there is no brood now, then there was no queen present when I took the nuc less than a week ago. Can I safely assume that?

This is my first 'situation' :? and I've got slight beginner panic setting in... My first thought is: How long do I have before a colony's population is too old to be saved?

Is it possible that even with a replacement queen, which might take a little while, there would be no nurse-aged bees left?

Am I correct that these are my options:

A) Introduce a new queen without knowing how long ago the last brood emerged. Is this unwise?
B) Introduce a frame with eggs and hope to raise a new queen.
C) A and B at the same time.
D) Leave them to it and just pray I missed a queen cell.
E) Combine my colonies, leaving me with one.

I'm waiting to hear from the nuc seller, but I wanted to check my basic bee logic. A real obstacle is my earlier colony doesn't have the resources yet to spare brood.

Any comments appreciated!
 #8133  by NigelP
 06 Jul 2020, 19:01
1, Contact nuc seller and express dissatisfaction with sale.i.e no queen. Demand replacement. Not a queen as introduction can be problematic .
2. In mean time introduce a frame to nuc and see what happens. If queen cells drawn...then no present queen.
 #8134  by Bubnov
 06 Jul 2020, 19:49
Thanks, Nigel. I hadn't considered a test frame in my muddle.
I wonder if this is something to do with how the nuc was built. I meant to also ask whether it's unusual at all for a nuc to still contain a queen cage. My other nuc didn't.

I know nothing about commercial nuc building methods of course, so is it possible that this was one put together from bits and pieces with a new queen introduced who was rejected? Or is there some cause to cage a parent hive queen when splitting off a nuc?

Hoping the seller is reasonable.
 #8135  by Japey Edge
 06 Jul 2020, 21:48
Test frame is a great choice and gives the answers you generally need.

I wanted to be certain a colony was queenless so they got a test frame. A few days later and there are QCs all over it. Took them down and introduced a queen. Easy as that for me.

I would echo Nigel's advice though. If you don't insist the seller swap your nuc for a queenright nuc then you'll be weeks behind. Getting a mated queen from your test frame will take a long time and knock a huge chunk out of this season.
 #8136  by Patrick
 06 Jul 2020, 22:29
Hi there and welcome to the Forum.

There’s nuc’s and then there’s nuc’s.. the fact you have a queen cage in there suggests you got it from a commercial operation who may raise bees to stock the nuc with and then maybe add a cheap imported queen before shipping out. The bees may well reject a strange queen and kill her as soon as she is released from the cage. Or she may nit yet have come back into lay - hence the test frame should tell you.

Agreed, you do not simply want another queen in a cage to drop in - though it’s the easiest option for the seller as the risk still lies with you.

The take home with hindsight is never buy a nuc you havent been able to inspect and check has a freely laying marked queen and eggs and brood in all stages.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.
 #8137  by AndrewLD
 07 Jul 2020, 13:05
So the new car I bought came without a steering wheel........

Have a look at this link for what a NUC should be: https://www.inibeekeepers.com/cms/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/nucleus_standard-l014_1342859848.pdf

Look at this from the angle of sale of goods act:
Did you buy this from an advert? What did it say you were getting?
Does the seller advertise in the BBKA News - contact them and complain that the seller is not complying with BBKA standards - get them on your side, ask them to remove the advert, and heap on the pressure.
Did you pay by credit card - tell the card company and lodge a Section 75 claim, asking for your money back.
Does the seller advertise on line - put in a cr*p review.
Warn your local association, get the word round - it will get back to the seller one way or another.
Tell them you want a new NUC with brood and a laying queen as per the BBKA guidelines. Offer to return their aggressive bees.....

As to your question:
The bees will adapt roles to suit the situation so don't worry they will care for brood.
 #8138  by NigelP
 07 Jul 2020, 16:54
To answer the second part of your question Bubnov..Unscrupulous Nuc sellers simply buy in queens, throw bees into nuc add queen and sell on. That is probably why there was still a queen cage in your nuc.
Bees can be plentiful and bulk buying queens can get down to around £25 a queen, then sell Nuc at £200+. A nice little earner ...caveat emptor.
Alas, there is too much of this sort of thing going on.
Even some of the bigger UK queen importers have little quality control over what they are selling. When I complained to one about some fierce Carniolans I had bought I was told it was down to my inexperience with dealing with them.
 #8140  by AdamD
 07 Jul 2020, 20:07
I am disappointed that a nuc seller would apparently put in a caged queen and then sell it like that. Queen introduction is never guaranteed. I would want to see that the queen has been accepted and there is sealed brood with a good brood pattern. (Agitation usually means that there's no queen).
I would hope that the seller will collect the faulty goods and replace at no cost to you.
Let us know how you get on!