Would You Switch?

[AdamD]

I am moving a couple of colonies onto Langstroth nucs for someone; I like the easy construction of the boxes, it's a doddle compared to Nationals. The small hand-holds are not for me although you can always fix a strip of wood across as a hand-hold - although a poly lang might be different. I wouldn't mind using Langstroths although one box might be too small for some colonies.

I tried 14 x 12's for a couple of years and didn't like them. I also tried a commercial once although the queen failed during the spring so that experiment didn't work out.

I also made a 16 frame National, for fun. (!). The bees didn't like travelling to the extreme ends - and it was too heavy and cumbersome. That was shrunk back to a National later.

So I am stuck with Nationals and go to two brood boxes during the summer. it allows fame manipulation - say put old brood combs on the outside of the lower box to be emptied - can be split, demareed or whatever. And I do tip up the top brood box and look for queencells as a quick check for swarming. And you can usually put National frames in an extractor to remove honey - 14 x 12's/commercials are probably too big for that.

[Chrisbarlow]

We talk about space required for summer expansion but rarely talk about winter and the size of hive required for then which I think ( correct if wrong please ) is why the British National came about.

I'm not sure that's why the national came about but the national history is sketchy at best, I'd love to see a reference document of some sort

I agree about winter size , people talk about single, double brooding etc...but we rarely discuss whether hive style is maintained all year round. I suspect for many, hive style with two brood boxes is dynamic

[NigelP]

The National hive has a poorly documented history. From what little I have been able to glean it came about as an attempt from the early beekeeping magazines to get beekeepers to use a standard frame size in the UK...something that never quite came about. This was at around the time that moveable frames where coming into use. The volume as such was designed to accommodate the size of the bees most in use in England those days which was Amm, which it held colonies with ease.
After the first world war (I think) it was redesigned as the Newly revised National hive. I think a patent was held up to around 1960. This modified hive used thinner wood (wood shortage) and had the side rebates for lifting that we know today. The original National hives had scalloped handholes etched in the sides.

In the states, at one time, there where over a 1000 patents for different hive types....the mind boggles. Only Dadant and Langstroth's really made the cut.

Interesting article on some of the even earlier hive types
http://outdoorplace.org/beekeeping/history1.htm

[Japey Edge]

Very interesting Nigel. The leaf hive has my attention. That's incredibly interesting.

Almost tempted to get one..

[AdamD]

The original National hives had scalloped handholes etched in the sides.

The national as we use it is actually the Modified National. I have an original National brood box (and I have no idea where it came from); however the scalloped handles are on the thin sides, and not the thicker ends which is most annoying!

[NigelP]

Very interesting Nigel. The leaf hive has my attention. That's incredibly interesting.

Almost tempted to get one..

HUber is well worth reading. Discovered bee space...although Langstroth is credited with finding a practical use for it. Discovered that queen bees need to leave hive to get mated and had to do so within 3 weeks. Also that royal jelly was sufficient to produce queen cells.... and much more. Very talented for a blind man.
Its free to download and read. His finding (at the time) were very controversial, one guy was so annoyed he wrote a whole book trying to discredit what Huber found.
New observations on the natural history of bees by François Huber
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/26457

[Chrisbarlow]

Huber is well worth reading. Discovered bee space...although Langstroth is credited with finding a practical use for it.

Controversial statements Nigel

what about Johann Dzierzon?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Dzierzon

[NigelP]

I think Huber (Died 1831) was a good many years before either Langstroth (died 1895)or Johann (Died 1869).
IIRC even Huber was beaten by several centuries by the ancient Greeks who had discovered bee space but didn't understand what it was. They used pottery urns with lattes of wood laid on top for the bees to draw combs on....they were spaced so they could be lifted out.
I'd still give the credit to Langstroth as the real father of moveable frames as Johann's hives were all opened from the rear so to do a full inspection you needed to remove every frame from the hive to get to the first frame. The fact the langstroth hive is still used today (albeit now single walled) bears testament to the design.

If you ever wondered where the description of the "warm and cold" way of frame arrangements came from....it was from the ancient Egyptian clay pipe hives. IIRC they used to score scratches on the inside to get them to go cold way (Perpendicular to entrance) as easier to see what was going on and/or remove comb with their primitive hive tools. When the bees drew comb the warm way (perpendicular to entrance rather than parallel) they were unable to see what was going on past the end comb at the rear. They also inspected from the rear, so makes a lot of sense.

[Alfred]

Indeed horses for courses
As beginner any more than one brood box is an extra complication on a hot day but having had a lovely big colony upsticks and go right in front of me just as I was making up another box for them, I would go 14:12 for the prolific gangs and think about kingspan frames or something to pack out the box for the quieter colonies.
One size only for brood and the supers for honey.
Keep it simple

[NigelP]

Indeed horses for courses
Keep it simple

Absolutely Alfred....Simple is very good.
Although I never see inspecting 2 brood boxes as a chore. Love inspections and hands on bees time. And an Oz armour ventilated bee suit means I can cooly inspect in speedos and bee suit only in hot weather....ooer missus.