Page 1 of 3

Winter colony survival

PostPosted:01 Apr 2020, 01:10
by MickBBKA
Once again the Southern centric BBKA have decided to do their survey a month before ' Winter ' has finished here. In fact the year my daughter was born it snowed about 2 inches the first week in May and our last frost date is mid June. I did manage to do a very quick inspection of most of my colonies last week but not the 6 at home as it was too cold. I have about 4 colonies that will die or live depending on the weather in the next 2 weeks. most years I am unable to inspect before mid April. So once again I will not be filling in a winter loss survey as its not a true reflection on beekeeping in my area as Winter is not over yet.
IMHO these surveys should take place in May.

Cheers, Mick.

Re: Winter colony survival

PostPosted:01 Apr 2020, 11:18
by AndrewLD
I am not sure that is fair on the BBKA because they have trustees representing the associations and it is up to the associations to shout when these timings are unrealistic.
Down here in supposedly balmy South Cambridgeshire (6degC at 1130hrs today) I have had a short window in which to re-order the boxes but I certainly couldn't inspect to see how many frames of brood were there. I just know my hives are alive, flying and taking in pollen but two of the five look under strength compared to the others and the one hive I did inspect had a very small brood area.
This weekend I might be able to get in there to take out some of the outer stores frames but depending on what I see, I might just hold off splitting the brood nest frames. So I got halfway through the survey and abandoned it.

Re: Winter colony survival

PostPosted:01 Apr 2020, 12:59
by AdamD
I do think it worthwhile filling in the survey if you can. (See BBKA website link).

I have had some little opportunity to inspect and it's been cooler for longer this year than many. I understand your comment Mick, although by 1st May we would be well over winter and some colonies in arts of the country would be swarming - esp if not managed well.

+++
Two points to the next bit.

1) If anyone can remember back last year, I sent a letter in to the BBKA magazine after the usual "matchstick your hives before winter" article; the result is an enhanced winter loss survey - asking about polyhives and insulation and the reason for winter losses (previously there was no definition of a winter loss and no questions about the type of conditions the bees were kept in). Therefore we may be able to learn whether losses were greater in a wooden hive compared to a polyhive, for example. Good stuff! The survey could answer the polyhive/insulation/matchstick argument for good - especially if done over several years.
(Don't recall seeing a quesation of whether we matchstick our hives though!).

2) However survey questions 4 and 5 asks- "How many queen right colonies with 5 or more frames of bees" did you have last October and this April.
Not sure if this means what it says.

For example, a 5 frame nuc might just about have 5 frames of bees in October, but is unlikely to have that many in April, even if it's viable and healthy. Are they asking whether a colony has shrunk (probably not as they all will have done) or are they asking if the colony is still alive in a box that is the size of a 5 frame nuc or bigger? I suspect the latter as previously they have not asked about mini-nucs which are too small to be considered viable over winter).
Am I just being pedantic or have I got it wrong?

Re: Winter colony survival

PostPosted:01 Apr 2020, 13:14
by AndrewLD
Actually, it's this 1st of April. So the answer is "How do I know what the situation is today" it's too cold to look.

Re: Winter colony survival

PostPosted:10 Apr 2020, 11:59
by DianeBees
AdamD wrote:
01 Apr 2020, 12:59

For example, a 5 frame nuc might just about have 5 frames of bees in October, but is unlikely to have that many in April, even if it's viable and healthy. Are they asking whether a colony has shrunk (probably not as they all will have done) or are they asking if the colony is still alive in a box that is the size of a 5 frame nuc or bigger? I suspect the latter as previously they have not asked about mini-nucs which are too small to be considered viable over winter).
Am I just being pedantic or have I got it wrong?
I overwinter a 6 frame nuc this year.
I didn't feed it. I opened it up two days ago and it had plenty of bees and has been put into a hive. It had four frames of brood and plenty of stores. I was quite impressed.

One of the hives that had gone through the winter in a hive has been put into a nuc as it was looking a bit lonely in the brood box.

I've not filled the winter losses survey in yet.

Re: Winter colony survival

PostPosted:17 Apr 2020, 11:52
by MickBBKA
17 April and I still have 4 colonies left to inspect, which is why I am so critical of the Winter loss survey. I managed to inspect a few others 2 days ago and found a colony with a queen laying about 50/50 drone/worker brood, so she got the boot and I threw the bees out in front of the other colonies. So that to me counts as another loss, I think that's 8 so far, a friend 3 miles away has now lost 16, another has lost 5 and another lost all 4 of his. Folk with bees in urban areas here don't appear to have lost any. My tiny nuc which has had about 50 bees in it for the last month which I expected to be dead by now is still clinging on in my back garden, its even got brood. They will get every chance I can give them to survive as they are little fighters having got this far. On a plus note several other colonies are now on 10 frames of mostly capped brood and I have added space. PLEASE WIND...…….GO AWAY... :lol:

Re: Winter colony survival

PostPosted:17 Apr 2020, 13:24
by NigelP
Yup interesting question on losses there Mick...if a hive makes it through the winter with a queen but she is a drone layers/ unmated virgin from late supercedure previous autumn or like yours running out of sperm ....do they count as winter losses? The exact same thing can occur in any hive at any other time of the year so they are not specific to winter.
I have one hive which on 1st inspection had a queen 4/5 BIAS etc etc. Last inspection no queen seen no brood, no queen cells.....test frame added. Is that a loss....1st inspection would say no, second would say ... probably a loss...
We need a better definition of what a winter loss is.
To me it's simply a hive that went into winter and died or a hive that went into winter queenright and ended up with a mere handful of bees left inside and no queen. All other scenarios are not really losses specific to winter, just losses that can occur at any time of the year.

To go back to one of Adam original points about whether winter losses vary in poly vs wood. I don't think we have had any cold enough winter s recently to really test that. In the mild winters we have been experiencing wouldn't expect much difference, except lower store usage in poly hives. -7C was Yorkshires coldest temperature this winter/spring recorded in Swaledale in April this year :)
What I do know from an old Finish beekeeper where they have extremely long cold winters -12 to -20 C are regular nightime temps......everyone uses poly hives. Many even use reptile heaters cables to keep nucs alive.

Re: Winter colony survival

PostPosted:17 Apr 2020, 17:50
by Steve 1972
NigelP wrote:
17 Apr 2020, 13:24
What I do know from an old Finish beekeeper where they have extremely long cold winters -12 to -20 C are regular nightime temps......everyone uses poly hives. Many even use reptile heaters cables to keep nucs alive.
I will miss that old fellows educated input..

Re: Winter colony survival

PostPosted:17 Apr 2020, 19:53
by AdamD
"To me it's simply a hive that went into winter and died or a hive that went into winter queenright and ended up with a mere handful of bees left inside and no queen. All other scenarios are not really losses specific to winter, just losses that can occur at any time of the year".

I get your point about something specific to winter. However another definition is a little different - which is a colony that needs beekeeper intervention to remain viable - so laying workers or a DLQ would also count.

However a clear definition would help rather than different beekeepers different interpretations of a 'loss'

Re: Winter colony survival

PostPosted:17 Apr 2020, 19:56
by AdamD
Steve 1972 wrote:
17 Apr 2020, 17:50
NigelP wrote:
17 Apr 2020, 13:24
What I do know from an old Finish beekeeper where they have extremely long cold winters -12 to -20 C are regular nightime temps......everyone uses poly hives. Many even use reptile heaters cables to keep nucs alive.
I will miss that old fellows educated input..
Many years ago he was Bubo on the original BBKA forum. Then he became Finman. What's happened to him?