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General Q&A, Bee chat and only Bee chat please
 #5236  by Spike
 24 Nov 2019, 20:38
Raw honey is not a term in the UK honey regulations. Honey cannot contain added sugars.
 #5237  by AndrewLD
 25 Nov 2019, 08:42
Spike wrote:
24 Nov 2019, 20:38
Raw honey is not a term in the UK honey regulations. Honey cannot contain added sugars.
That is my understanding as well, which is why it's not on the label. With all the adulterated honey coming into the EU (maybe also from within the EU!!) the thought of added sugar doesn't bear thinking about.

Nevertheless, the reaction to the term Raw Honey by the people I stayed with is ignoring the fact that people are taking more interest in the provenance of the honey they buy and would preferhoney that has not been polished to the point of absolute clarity nor pasteurised to maintain shelf life.

So if the term raw honey doesn't appear in the regs is it forbidden or is it merely an adjective that has to be an accurate descrition of what is being sold - that's the $64,000 question?????
 #5238  by NigelP
 25 Nov 2019, 09:43
Given there is no legal definition of "Raw" honey it's a minefield.
When I get asked is my honey Raw....I ask my customers what do they mean by raw. To date non have had a clue what they were asking for.
Of course all my honey is raw and in some cases cold pressed../Big Grin/
 #5239  by Patrick
 25 Nov 2019, 10:50
I share the discomfort of using non defined terms in food marketting. Food is already awash with hype and nonsense terms. As James Martin quipped once “what’s the difference between a quenelle and a dollop? 30 quid”.

My honey is only warmed to revert back from naturally granulated because my consumers prefer runny honey and filtered enough to remove bee parts, wax capping shreds etc. It is certainly not heated to pasteurisation levels.

It is clear certainly but if raw means less processing than that, then I am uneasy Food Standards would share the enthusiasm. And I don’t think my product is inferior as a consequence of my handling. As previously commented, the only common sense definition of raw is comb honey or sections.
 #5241  by AndrewLD
 25 Nov 2019, 12:17
Patrick wrote:
25 Nov 2019, 10:50
I share the discomfort of using non defined terms in food marketting. Food is already awash with hype and nonsense terms.
My honey is only warmed to revert back from naturally granulated because my consumers prefer runny honey and filtered enough to remove bee parts, wax capping shreds etc. It is certainly not heated to pasteurisation levels.
Patrick, my honey is exactly as yours.
I think there's at least two elements to this:
1. Raw honey is not a defined term and therefore it should not appear on the jar label as "Raw Honey" or it is not compliant with the Honey Regs.
However, I see no harm in adding a small card leaflet that explains exactly how my honey has been stored and treated and describing it as raw honey (as much "raw" as any other honey sold by others under that term). As honey is being labelled and sold as Raw Honey, and no one has stopped it, and there is a market for it, then you may think its a nonsense term but it is one we have to compete against.
2. The BBKA is very proud of the exacting standards required of submissions to association honey shows (clarity and all that) but the average customer at my stall seems suspicious of the price tag attached to such beautiful honey when they can buy crystal clear honey in the supermarket for far less. Furthermore, they are grateful to know that the honey is unadulterated, not over filtered or over-heated and tastes good and because of that the accept the price tag of £5 - £6 a lb. The very qualities that the BBKA honey judges hold dearest seems to be lost on the average person in the street.

I certainly would not want to see honey contaminated with bits of bee, cappings etc excused as "Raw Honey" that then under-mines the reputation of British beekeepers' honey. If someone does try that they will correctly fall foul of the Honey Regs - and trading standards officers (if you can find one!).

ADDENDUM!!!
Daily Mail reports today: Tesco's own brand honey is under investigation after tests suggested it has been bulked out with cheap syrups. The National Food Crime Unit has reportedly launched a probe into the supermarket giant's own-brand version of the sugary snack.

I think that report rather underlines my point. I think we are going to have to find ways of differentiating our local honey from what is being sold by Supermarkets for far less money. No wonder the French are looking into DNA testing honey coming into France. Of course I am sure Tesco will be exonerated from knowingly selling adulterated honey but the damage has and is being done on a regular basis.
 #5242  by AdamD
 25 Nov 2019, 13:37
"ADDENDUM!!!
Daily Mail reports today: Tesco's own brand honey is under investigation after tests suggested it has been bulked out with cheap syrups. The National Food Crime Unit has reportedly launched a probe into the supermarket giant's own-brand version of the sugary snack".


I saw the same thing in another sunday 'paper this weekend.
 #5243  by AdamD
 25 Nov 2019, 13:50
Definitions: (Do these make sense?)

Raw honey is honey that hasn't been cooked, I assume.
Sieved honey is (probably what most of us do which is) put it through a double strainer.
Filtered honey would probably mean pushed through a finer mesh to delay crystallization by removing finer particles. It's often heated by (large) commercial operations to enable this.
Warmed honey. Warmed to get runny again before putting into jars. It would be warmed enough to keep HMF below the legal threshold. I guess a lot of us do this as well.
Overheated honey - is then classed as Bakers honey. (Although it's difficult for amateur beekeepers to be able to measure HMF levels).
Straight from the comb. With wax and occasional bits of bee. Might granulate very very quickly.

So can RAW honey be sieved and warmed, or is warming a no no? (No one seems to know) If so then RAW honey is just sieved (And is it sieved a lot or just a little bit?).

Perhaps the BBKA could come up with their own definition of what UK raw honey actually is to avoid confusion.
 #5244  by AndrewLD
 25 Nov 2019, 14:48
What have I done :shock:
I read Adam's list and thought, perhaps we could call our honey "Artisan" honey and googled it to check what artisan meant. I have been beaten to it; there's is already someone labelling their honey as such! To quote their definition:
"By choosing Raw Artisan Honey you can be sure that your honey:
- Pure Raw Wholesome food
- 100% Natural totally Additive Free
- GMO-Free
- Unprocessed, Unpasteurised and Unfiltered
- Sustainably Produced by Small Producers, who care about their bees"

OK - this year and for the first time my extracting fitted neatly into 30lb tubs that matched the supers - so just for fun I tagged the tubs with the hive the honey had come from. It was interesting to note the difference between each hive's honey. I then found myself with a stall with little piles of jars separated out by hives (I only had 4 to choose from this year) and was happily explaining the different tastes (as best I could).

So my honey is now going to have to be accompanied by an A4 sheet describing it as "Raw Honey from local bees" "Bottled by an artisan beekeeper" "This honey comes from "Blue Hive" which is a colony of Buckfast bees ....... etc ad nausem. Where will it all end?
 #5245  by Patrick
 25 Nov 2019, 15:04
Haha Andrew, there lies madness indeed!

As you say, your practice is the same as mine but I love the idea of an accompanying card explaining your process.

A brief scan of Google has made me rapidly realise that we seem amongst a blizzard of sales description of our own products - let alone sweeping generalisations about others.

I am confused where the term pasteurisation is used and what is meant by it with honey. As far as I am concerned, as long as the moisture level is below legal limits there is no need to pasteurise honey? Am I missing something?

Flash warming at 62 degrees is to used commercially to ensure fewer naturally occurring sugar seeding crystals to slow down the granulation process, it is not used to kill “spoiling agents” as with milk or fruit juices etc. Or am I wrong somewhere?
 #5246  by Patrick
 25 Nov 2019, 16:29
Just seen this https://www.bee-craft.com/news/raw-honey

So that clears that up. Er, not.