BBKA Forum

British Beekeepers Association Official Forum 

  • Rose Hives

  • General Q&A, Bee chat and only Bee chat please
General Q&A, Bee chat and only Bee chat please
 #10018  by SeanK
 17 Feb 2021, 18:16
Has anyone tried Rose Hives please?
On my previous post asking about Langstroths (as part of my decision-making on what type of hives to use going forward now I'm re-starting beekeeping after a few years having previously used WBCs) Patrick mentioned them in his reply:
"There is also the Rose hive which uses equal sized boxes throughout. Might be worth a look if you fancy doing something different?"
I can't find a great deal online (perhaps that's a sign?!)
But they look really interesting and have a reasonable nod from Roger Patterson:
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/rosehive.html
I guess someone must be using them because they are available from Thornes:
https://www.thorne.co.uk/hives-and-bees/hives/rose-osb
The biggest difference seems to be in having all boxes just one size (midway between a BS Deep and a super). And in managing them without a crown board! So some extracted honey will inevitably come from frames which at some point previously contained brood. Is that such a big problem?! I often tell friends how hygienic bees are and they clean out cells in the brood box as soon as a new bee emerges. And as Roger Patterson points out "bees are moving nectar/honey about all the time and it is my observation that much of the nectar that comes into a hive is put in the brood nest first anyway."
So are Rose Hives a good idea - for both bees and beekeepers?
 #10023  by Alfred
 17 Feb 2021, 19:19
I would say try it and see but as before you forego some compatibility and availability-being different is cool but you have to be wary- as Icarus found out.
Its like the Qwerty keyboard-there are far better layouts that are easier to learn and quicker to use but for compatibility the majortiy use what everyone else is using.
Be aware that 'El Roj' has his own opinions that he has piggybacked onto Dave Cushmans work and those are his opinions and not gospel.
Especially the matchstick thing that he may never live down. :)
 #10027  by Steve 1972
 17 Feb 2021, 20:48
The standard British national hive is not the favorite in my abode for nothing..it works and works well..
 #10028  by Patrick
 17 Feb 2021, 21:28
Just as there are many ways to keep bees in a National or any other hive, so there are options with a same size box system. I understood Tim Rose is based in Ireland and uses his same sized boxes in a particular management system, including foregoing excluders amongst other things.

You could operate any hive configuration without excluders if you so wished, I mentioned the Rose box alternative principally on the basis of similar medium sized boxes throughout, which has some obvious advantages if you wanted to try something different.

I can’t honestly comment on the particular management system advocated by Mr Rose as I haven’t tried it. Personally I am not a huge fan of the excluder-free hives I have encountered. Huge colonies granted, but across several boxes maybe not so great..?
 #10035  by MarkR
 19 Feb 2021, 15:45
Tim Rowe has written a book "The Rose Hive Method".

He has also posted a number of videos on YouTube (many beekeeping ones, including how he makes the hives) - search for "Way Out West Blow-in blog".
 #10038  by Patrick
 19 Feb 2021, 18:18
Thanks for the link Mark. Mr Rowe certainly seems quite a character and I had a very enjoyable hour browsing several interesting videos - and I never even got to the beekeeping ones!
 #10050  by SeanK
 20 Feb 2021, 18:16
Thank you folks. Does anyone have any thoughts about this part of my query in relation to not using queen excluders:

...some extracted honey will inevitably come from frames which at some point previously contained brood. Is that such a big problem?! I often tell friends how hygienic bees are and they clean out cells in the brood box as soon as a new bee emerges. And as Roger Patterson points out "bees are moving nectar/honey about all the time and it is my observation that much of the nectar that comes into a hive is put in the brood nest first anyway."
 #10055  by Patrick
 20 Feb 2021, 22:53
I think I probably agree with the general principle of your point Sean.

But...the practical issues with running hives without excluders are that the brood nest will become elongated, meaning that several boxes will have some brood as well as honey in them. This means if you want to do inspections or a mid season extraction you may need to check go through each frame rather than just lift off entire boxes. Maybe not an issue for one or two hives but maybe tedious with many, if numerous part boxes had frames with brood. I personally never take honey from brood boxes, which does mean double box colonies can retain substantial amounts of honey overwinter. I noted Mr Rose never fed sugar to overwinter, so presumably his hives were left with substantial stores. Presumably some years little crop at all was taken from some of them?

You have no way of knowing where the queen should normally be and where she shouldn’t, hence looking for her over many boxes could be quite time consuming and the risk of mishap is arguably increased.

A reason to keep brood to one box and extract honey from other may include varroa treatments. Some may leave leave residues in the wax that if they subsequently contained honey could affect taste or other contamination.

If supers with frames that have been bred at some point are stored overwinter they tend to be more attractive to waxmoths, which is my personal reason for not giving queens access to supers.

That all said, for many centuries and most systems around the world, beekeepers kept and still keep their bees without excluders. So it’s just another choice to make. :D
 #10063  by NigelP
 21 Feb 2021, 19:15
The Rose hive principal, (doesn't have to be rose size boxes)....is well known as a great honey producer. Can be done with any system using same sized boxes, often langstroth. You do need a queen excluder and the general idea is you move honey filled frames from brood nest up into the "supers" as they fill.
So you never get a honey clogged "brood box. It's a lot of work and manipulation but is supposed to, work really well for maximum honey generation.
 #10071  by AdamD
 22 Feb 2021, 10:29
Having a queen excluder does make things 'easy' for the beekeeper as we are usually pretty confident that the queen is below it and there is no brood above. Not always the case, as noted by the current queencell post. However, we do see that if there is a good flow on, bees will dump honey in the brood nest which will be moved later to give space for brood-rearing.

I haven't used a Rowe hive. However when I move bees from a single brood box to a double, I usually split the brood vertically over the two boxes, once a colony gets to about 8 or 9 frames of brood. I also tend to leave a space in the top row where I will put drawn comb which is soon filled with brood, so I am giving the bees easy room to expand. They usually get to around 14 - 16 frames of brood like this - sometimes more. If I just put a brood box with frames below a full one, it takes a while for bees to move the brood-nest down.

This is the sort of thing I do with the two brood boxes depending on availability of frames.

Key
D=Drawn Comb
B=Brood
F=Drawn comb or foundation
W=Wooden Dummy Board
S=Super foundation in deep frame (for drone brood removal)

FDSBBDBBDSFW
DDFBBBBDFFDW


Using old drawn comb in the bottom box gives room and it can be 'one last use' before melting down. If foundation is placed at the edges of the lower box, it can just get chewed up. However if I am a frame short and I leave a lower space for a frame to go - say on the outside of the box, I can almost guarantee that comb will be drawn from below the frame above!