Langstroth hives

[SeanK]

Hi, I'm resuming beekeeping after a few years out - kept bees for a decade in three WBC hives but they are now rotten (were originally "pre-loved"!) and am considering Langstroths - on the basis they have more capacity and hopefully bees will be less likely to swarm. I'd appreciate any thoughts from existing Langstroth owners. Or should I just get Nationals?! (I'm new to the Forum so hope I've posted this in the correct place!)

[Patrick]

Hi Sean

Good to know you are back on the case. I have not used Langstroths myself, but it’s a pretty popular option albeit not so much in the UK.

As you probably already know, a larger brood chamber option compatible with National kit are Commercial boxes, which I run alongside Nationals.

Personally I have never been so sure that the provision of lots of extra space necessarily suppresses the swarming urge over and above other prevailing conditions such as weather and the bees genetics etc.

[Alfred]

Further to Patrick
Don't forget the 1412 brood boxes available for standard nationals,therefore otherwise keeping to a hive type where any UK supplier will stock parts for.
But the box size is only one factor in the colonies plan to stick around or burger off somewhere else..
Some bees swarm purely for entertainment -
"Hey the human is looking smug and self satisfied lately -shall we .......?
" Yeahhh! let's go!!"

I've got a langstroth partially converted to be framed but the previous owner had got a bit confused with the TBS arrangement so it's all going to have to be redone.
Plan is to make the conversion removable in the event langstroth framed bees ever arrive

[AdamD]

Welcome to the forum!
I don't have any real experience of Langstroths apart from putting bees onto Langstroth frames for a couple of people. I generally run my colonies with two National (or WBC) brood boxes in the summer, so I would agree with many views that a single National is often too small. My summary would be that a Langstroth brood box is probably big enough most of the time whereas a National is probably not big enough most of the time. I think it depends on whether you are anticipating doing anything with other beekeepers where commonality is useful - and this might go to extractors if you beg or borrow an extractor off someone else. Also consider how far north you are as colonies might not get so big further north.
If you are making your own, a Langstroth is definitely easier to make. If you are planning to go to poly, then that issue goes out of the window.
If I started again, I would certainly consider Langstroths as an option.

[NigelP]

Just to add a few pennyworth.
Langstroth hives size was designed (as was Dadant) for prolific bees, Italians in those far off days.
So it's quite important that you know that the type of bee you are intending keeping can actually fill and use that amount of space. Otherwise you end up with an un-fecund queen laying in a cathedral. i.e. too much space.
I don't think there is a universal solution, but my take is using standard d National hives. Most of my queens need double brood come summer and this makes space manipulations so much easier than having a single very large brood box. It also makes swarm control easier as I already have 2 boxes of bees...just need to rearrange some frames.
It does mean a little more lifting, but nowt's perfect in this beekeeping world.

[SeanK]

Thank you for those considered replies! I previously started with swarms and will probably end up doing the same this time so don't need to be compatible with other 'keepers. Equally it means I'll have no idea what type of bee I'll have! But I may end up borrowing an extractor and hadn't realised I might need a different type of extractor for Langstroth frames, which may be an issue.
I only had WBC hives before as a trade-off with my wife (not a trade off for my wife!) She wanted the hives to look pretty in the garden. She's now inheriting the old WBC hives to look quaint in the flower beds and house her trowels etc... Though she may get a nasty surprise if they end up inadvertently being bait hives!
Perhaps brood and a half Nationals might prove easier to manage for dividing in terms of swarm control - and it's been suggested to me that some inspections could be carried out simply by listing the "half" box and looking for any queen cells hanging down?! That trick can't be performed if on a single deep be it a Langstroth or 14x12 National.
Though I'm torn because I like the cleaner aesthetic look of the Langstroth - and being a bit cantankerous I like to be different! (Though of course I'd not be "different" in global terms).
Anyway, thank you for being welcoming and helpful for my first post here and I am really looking forward to getting back into it - I've missed the gentle hum of a content colony (though not the rare moment when it suddenly goes up a bit followed by unwanted attention!)
Please feel free to add any further thoughts.
Best wishes to you all.

[Patrick]

You did say if you have any further thoughts..

Fact is, the bees will likely do just fine in most common brood box types. Unless you are intending to keep an awful lot of hives, the main factor is probably what is most convenient for you? Double nationals are a great option, probably better than brood and a half, which I personally find a bit something and nothing (grumpy, grumpy..), particularly useful for swarm control, overwintering and even getting brood combs drawn out.

The tip up box for spotting queen cells trick is okay at a hasty push, but not reliable enough for me and misses out on seeing so much more information as to what is going on with the bees and combs. Reading combs is something our grandfathers took very seriously and has become hardly mentioned these days. I have seen some beekeepers doing demonstrations who seemed largely oblivious to much beyond pointing out capped worker brood and trying to spot the queen.

There is also the Rose hive which uses equal sized boxes throughout. Might be worth a look if you fancy doing something different?

[MickBBKA]

I find that with my locals you have to fit the box to the bees, that only comes with experience and I now have a sort of sixth sense for how they will turn out. A 4 frame over winter Nuc can blast past a over winter poly brood and a half by the end of April no problem, they are just that variable and I have learned to go by my gut feeling. Queens in their first season in my local area rarely get beyond a brood and 2 supers. Their second season they can be in double or double and a half with 6 supers......or a single brood and swarm..LOL. Season 3 they will usually be double brood with at least 3 supers but looking to swarm and if not managed right kill the queen or swarm or both. Starting again I would go commercial, I use Nationals though and are too far down the road to change.

There you go....Ask a question...Get...................... ?? LOL

[Alfred]

I use standard nationals and so far get on fine without multiple boxes
I hate the idea of lifting the upper box ,dropping the queen without noticing and stepping on her.
Brood and a half ends up with three frame types per hive- pain in the backside.
As Patrick suggests,the tip up trick is just so- a trick
In a similar way,no one ever tells you to check honey supers for swarm cells
Proper inspection has no substitute.

If I had to start again Id I'd go 1412 and dummy down for small colonies.
I think that would give them a more natural nest shape,like the hollow tree cliche.
Then open back up if they decide to expand.

When my current stock of standard frames depletes I may consider making up some more conversion ekes and try that route without having to change anything other than the old frames

[SeanK]

Wow! Thanks all for so much good info/thoughts.
I don't think I'd want to adopt the "tip up" inspection as the norm but working long days/weeks I often find that the only day I've got off is pouring with rain, and if I can't do a full inspection and leave it until the following week the sun will come out while I'm at work and by the time of my inspection days later they'll be gone!
I'm starting to come round to the National idea - not least because I can have a gabled roof and keep my wife happy! But also for ease or replacement parts/second hand and exchanging colonies/frames if needs be (subject to quarantine!)
And it's a good point about not going brood and a half because of mixing frame sizes - so probably 14x12 or double BB.
Thanks all for thoughts!