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  • Compulsory Registration - Can it be far off?

  • General Q&A, Bee chat and only Bee chat please
General Q&A, Bee chat and only Bee chat please
 #9164  by AndrewLD
 12 Oct 2020, 09:49
In a recent article in the BBKA News (September 2020 page 300) Roger Patterson expresses his concern about "a new breed of beekeeper who thinks they can bypass the traditional ways of learning" and he warns associations to expect a reduction in membership. He recounts his conversation with one such prospective beekeeper who had learnt all he thought he needed to know online.
We recently had a post on the forum from one such person who clearly thought little of traditional beekeeping methods (and beekeepers it seemed) although at the same time they saw the forum as useful to get answers (I assume because it was a quicker way to fill the vast gaps in their knowledge than searching on-line elsewhere). Of great concern to me was that person's indication that they would treat AFB/EFB themselves but without knowing that these were notifiable diseases that posed a threat to bee colonies all around them.
It seems to me that this "new breed" fits into a different class to the beginners that I had the pleasure of meeting at our association's beginners classes. Many of those may have had ideas and aspirations that are outside the norm of traditional beekeeping but they were willing to learn the basic skills and were very appreciative of the huge time and effort put into training them by volunteers who looked for nothing more than a thank you at the end.
The "new breed" are often well educated and articulate but naïvely ignorant as to the consequences of their "hands off beekeeping". They can be aggressive, sarcastic and disparaging when referring to beekeepers, that they then turn to when caught out by their stupidity. I can think of more than one such beekeeper closer to me than I am comfortable with so there must be many more across the country as a whole.
Roger saw a threat to beekeeping associations but I see a bigger problem than that. I think they are a potential danger to our bees, which are after all a valuable national resource. I am not a great advocate of even more legislation but is not the time fast approaching that compulsory registration is needed?
 #9171  by Steve 1972
 12 Oct 2020, 10:55
I have had bees for more than a few years now and i am a member of no association..i tick along nicely though out the seasons and i take a fair honey yield and each year it seems to be rising..personally i do not think an association has anything to offer me at this stage of my beekeeping ..however in saying that i
get where you are coming from because they must be thousands of beekeepers out there that do not have a clue and could need help from an association...but on the other hand i bet there are thousands out there who are a member of an association that also do not have a clue..

I will just keep doing what i am doing for now..and as for compulsory registration i think it would be nigh on impossible to police..
 #9176  by Patrick
 12 Oct 2020, 11:58
I think we are currently in a period of huge social change. People’s choices as to how they spend their leisure time, socially interact, learn about things and communicate are changing very fast. What was once peripheral is now mainstream and given’s are no longer, er, given. Within a single 7 month period all my work meetings are now by video conference and telephone conferencing. The idea of travelling great distances to meet face to face to talk something over already seems almost quaint.

I think the accepted ways of introducing people to beekeeping that suited my generation will just have to adapt or accept that many younger beekeepers will increasingly simply go their own way. Whether we might like it or not, the Internet gives voice to a plethora of different opinions and in built algorithms ensure you are rapidly fed only a selected diet of information that panders to what it perceives is your preferred bias, limiting your exposure to the full range of possible views.

In the bees interests, we need to take people with us however they got here. There are also some sacred cows that only trying alternative approaches can reveal and we can all learn from.

I personally do not think that compulsory registration would achieve much and I rather fear would eventually be used for purposes other than we might currently intend.
 #9178  by AdamD
 12 Oct 2020, 13:14
Andrew brings up an interesting point - the way beekeepers learn about the craft has changed significantly to date and will continue to do so. Books written by yesterdays 'expert's' became bibles and odd practices 'taught' by local experts or mentors could easily become 'the right way' to look after bees. Although I am a member of my local association, I rarely go to meetings - it's an hour and a half round trip to start with. It is easier to get advice from a forum such as this than get specific advice at an association meeting. And of course there are youtube videos. Some are poor; some are OK; although how does a novice know whether he is looking at a video that's relevant to him/her?

I assess candidates for the BBKA basic exam; some of these have been trained very well (if a bit over-structured on the practical side of things); some need a lot of teasing to get the answers from them. However the candidates are generally OK and do have enough knowledge to keep bees after being on a course although disease recognition is often a weak point. The fact that they WANT to pay some money and take the exam means they want to progress. Good on 'em.

I get calls from beekeepers who don't really know what they are doing and have not attended a course of any kind and often the call is to obtain a queen when they have one in the hive already (a virgin) which comes good a couple of weeks later. ("My bees have swarmed, I need a queen").

A lot of people like the idea of keeping honeybees, and any prospective beekeepers I speak to are advised be me to 'get some learnin' before they embark on the craft or "they will just waste their money" most probably. And we all know what a steep learning curve it is keeping honeybees.

I usually suggest joining the local association - for BBKA insurance for one thing. However I am not sure how good some associations are in dealing with new members and mentoring them. I guess that good associations will survive and poor ones might wither and fail.

However does the above mean that we should not allow people to keep bees unless they are registered? Or should we not allow people to keep bees until they have attended and passed a very basic introductory course? (Just like 16 year-olds have to go on a very basic motorbike course which doesn't really equip them for the road). If the course was to be run by an accredited association, that might encourage association membership.

If registration or course attendance were to be made compulsory to reduce the prevalence of (notifiable) diseases, then disease would need to be high enough to warrant it and there would need to be a sufficient sanction (punishment) if someone failed to register. Thankfully, we are not at that level yet is my best guess.
 #9181  by NigelP
 12 Oct 2020, 13:27
Whilst I firmly believe in educating beekeepers, the damage a poor associations course can do is horrendous.
I had to unlearn most of things I was taught as gospel. They were still encouraging matchsticks and local bees only. I also hated the fact that many condescended to you as they were the "expert" and you were the new-bee so knew nothing. Many couldn't even answer some of the basic biology questions I asked them. About half of my year course gave up when their colonies got large and vicious.....and then they were being told they weren't handling them correctly. I remember just after I switched to Buckfast one of their teachers paying me a visit and telling me there was something wrong with my bees as they just sat calmly on the frames whist being inspected.
Most of what I learnt and am still learning has come from talking to lots (and lots) of beekeepers and sifting the chiff from the chaff and there is a lot of chaff talked by many associations.
The only way to keep bees IMHO is get some and get on with it. If you want to do a course do one, but not everyone needs to go on one. There are plenty of intelligent beekeepers who haven't been near a course.
 #9184  by NigelP
 12 Oct 2020, 14:29
huntsman. wrote:
12 Oct 2020, 14:08

Utter rubbish!
How are you going to keep bees if you don't have any? Beekeeping is a hands on hobby.
Bees are pretty good at sorting things out for themselves, despite all the mistakes we make with them.
If you don't agree with me you could at least have the courtesy to describe your point of view. rather reply with an abusive comment.
 #9185  by Steve 1972
 12 Oct 2020, 14:35
huntsman. wrote:
12 Oct 2020, 14:08
<The only way to keep bees IMHO is get some and get on with it. >

Utter rubbish!
I find your comment rather pathetic..i read up on the subject for years and viewed lots of videos..i then did what Nigel suggests..i learned quite a lot from my own experiences and also my own mistakes...6 yrs on and my hive count is steadily going up and i love learning from what each week/month and year the bees are going to throw at me and how to get around what does not go right..i have 10 to 12 colonies through out the season..all behave differently and need different manipulations at times..with having more than one or two colonies has learned me a lot and i believe no book could ever teach me half of what i have learned through simply getting a colony and as per Nigel just getting on with it..
 #9187  by AndrewLD
 12 Oct 2020, 15:21
Thank you for a very interesting and thoughtful range of views. We'll see what others think if they care to contribute.
Although I think we in this country (beekeepers that is) are inherently against lots of regulation, I can see a situation arising where "free-thinking and untrained beekeepers who are operating under the NBU radar" become a problem - be it swarms in towns, pockets of EFB which the best efforts of the bee inspectors are unable to track down (we seem to have that now in north Cambridge), unregulated medicines getting into the food chain (remember fipronil and chickens?). The reputation of the craft will go downhill, bees will suffer etc etc. We will be in the firing line from all sorts of directions.

One solution is to make all apiaries be registered with the number to be prominently displayed - as in France (that's how I know where to find apiaries to check for the Asian hornet. The other complementary measure would be to require a basic certificate of competence from an approved trainer.

The way we interact is changing but not necessarily for the good - there has to be that hands on training in an apiary.
My association had to pull its course and some mentors (short on the ground anyway) have pulled out of active mentoring due to the covid business - and who can blame them as most are in the high risk group. We could do zoom courses for the theory - might actually be easier than carting all my stuff into Cambridge. There's a beginner near me whose mentor is sheltering so I have stepped in and I have had him come to my apiary, we are outside, are careful to try and keep that distance (can be difficult passing frames of bees at arm's length) - it's not ideal but its the best I can offer and it could be a solution. I hated going to the association apiary where conditions were always less than ideal, the bees were being opened up too much and I don't think tetchy bees is a good introduction.

If you want to see the problem as I see it - have a look at one or two of the threads going on right now. As an association (BBKA that is) we are failing to catch these people - got to do better.
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