Double brood

[Barney]

Hi everyone...
I was wondering if anyone left there double brood with super stores?or if you took them all knowing they had enough stores?
Also,for the winter, has anyone got any tips for over wintering,crown board on/off,empty box on top?
I am kind of new to it
Thankyou

[nealh]

Most colonies will be fine on just one brood if it is heavy with stores, though a really strong colony with sveral frame sof brood would need more room for stores. Double brood and a super isn't necessary, one should have been checking on stores during September to see how well they were provisioned.
Crown board 100% on with no ventilation and a 40/50mm slab of celotex/Kingspan type insulation on top in an eke to keep the warmth in better, any empty space above will cause a cold spot and condensation so insulate.

[Barney]

Thankyou
This is the first time I have taken honey off them, this is the 3rd summer with them and they have done really well,but it’s the first time I have had to work out what to do with the supers.
Thankyou,
I will remove them,but also will make sure they have enough stores,by weight.I should of checked this better in September,I won’t make the same mistake next year.
Thankyou

[AndrewLD]

Sound advice but does the original poster mean just one super or more (?), on top or under (nadired)?
I would say, everything Neal said but also, have you hefted to see how heavy the double brood is? Do you know to take out the queen excluder so that the bees move up into the super(s) as a cluster? You have double brood but just as relevant is the size of the colony or you could give them too much space that loses heat.
It is the middle of October and we had an air frost last night so it's probably too late to be syrup feeding. Perhaps next year start winter preparation earlier.......

[Barney]

Hi
My double brood is a brood and a half ,I think,brood box and a super,with queen excluder on top.
I have two supers on top of that.the weather hasn’t been too bad here and they are still bringing in pollen,I think from ivy?.
I do realise I should of done the winter sorting out earlier than thiS now.
But I didn’t which I feel quite bad about now and I hope I can still sort it.
I am going to remove the supers after checking the weight and having a very quick peek at stores.
I will put the crown board on top and maybe stick a bit of kingspan under roof(one has this already).
All on a reasonably nice day

[Barney]

Also sorry, the colony is very strong with a lot of bees.
On my other hive,it isn’t as strong but still good

[AndrewLD]

Don't beat yourself about it; I am late this year.
I am on 14x12's, which is the equivalent of brood and a half. A personal preference but I always regard Ivy as a top-up for stores used after feeding so I discount it.
Given our warmer wetter winters (sorry - should have looked where you are!) I go for nadiring and the fact that the super is always empty in March suggests I am right (I can always take out a brood frame or two of stores if there is too much left in the spring).
I would just take off the supers, heft the brood and a half (it should feel nailed down) and if in any doubt I'd put a good super of stores underneath. It's getting a little late now for bees shunting stuff around but I think its now too late for syrup and that just leaves fondant as an option if you don't leave a super. Nadir or leave the super on top (but take out the QE and be prepared to move the queen down below a QE in spring to clear the super of brood).
The insulation on top of a sealed coverboard is a real benefit to the bees (stick your hand under the insulation in winter and feel the difference)

[Patrick]

Hi Barney and welcome to the Forum.

Be of good cheer, it will be fine. However, the road to Hell is paved with assumptions. Having lots of boxes in a stack does not mean they are necessarily all full of honey. How much do they now have? Bees can really munch through it in a warm late summer - this is a good thing but means they can be light in stores.

Brood and a half should be enough to store a supplied feed if they have no alternative location to put it but...the bees may have stored all their gathered honey in the supers. If you remove them now you could find the brood and a half remaining is way too light. By “too light” I mean the overwintering boxes in October should be so heavy it is a real effort to lift on side up off the stand. If they lift relatively easily, they could struggle to last until Spring.

So to cut to the chase .. it will do no harm this time of year to quickly remove supers, assessing their remaining weight whilst doing so and set them on the upturned roof. Then heft the brood and a half by lifting one side up. If it feels really heavy, all good and remove supers and close up. If it feels quite easy to tip up a bit ( rather more likely) and the supers are really heavy, put brood and a half to one side and put supers on the floor and replace the brood box over. This is sometimes called nadiring.

If neither supers nor brood is really heavy (also likely if it is a big hungry colony), I would remove supers to extract and get hold of a 12.5kg chunk of bakers fondant from my local baker, split the pack in two lengthways and bung it open face down (leave the blue wrapping the other sides) on the queen excluder, pop an empty super round it, pop on the crownboard with something to block off the feedholes and roof on. Then you know for certain they have had at least that to work on. You could surround the fondant slabs with some insulation or an old sack but they should be fine without. They will steadily munch through the fondant and when it’s just blue wrapper left remove the super and Bob’s your mothers brother..

Keep hefting your hives each month during winter, they should start to lighten up in Feb / March but with favourable weather things should start going then anyway.

Don’t beat yourself up regarding leaving annual feeding “a bit late” I did as well. And each of the previous twenty come to think of it...

[Patrick]

Sorry Andrew, hadn’t seen your post - luckily we were of similar mind!

[NigelP]

My bees must not have read Andrews books as still emptied their rapid feeders overnight and it was 4C here last night in North Yorkshire, it was their last top up feed of the year (I hope), although I have fed syrup into Nov on one colony that was determined to turn all the feed into bees instead of stores.
As Patrick suggests if you are not sure then add a slab of fondant, a safer bet as they will stop taking syrup at some point. I'd try to check store levels if I could before deciding what to do. Despite what people will tell you there is still time to do a very quick inspection to see what you have. Just don't dawdle about.
And if they are on double brood I'd tend to leave them on double brood. If you do want to give them a super I'd leave it on top without a QX. Come spring you easily add back a QX.....when you are sure HM is below.