Thomas Seeley on Treatment Free

[AndrewLD]

Easy, the question never asked of people entering the wonderful world of beekeeping is what do they want out of it!!
Courses are one dimensional in their teaching with the teachers viewpoint's accepted as de rigour.... I had to resign from my local association as a talk I was giving about varroa control included vaporised oxalic acid, I was told I couldn't talk about this method. I refused and resigned.

That is clearly not the fault of beginners although I think I was focused on the aspirations hobbyists and whether we know what they now want.
but in those circumstances; a very understandable reaction.
But back to the topic, I don't think treatment free is an option these days unless you can reasonably expect your bees to be isolated rom the rest of the modern world.
Better the debate than a blind acceptance that there are no other options.

[NigelP]

Better the debate than a blind acceptance that there are no other options.

I couldn't agree more, there are many ways to keep bees that suit the needs of the individual keeper. To prevent someone providing information at a talk to the members of that organization is almost criminal and draconian.
Reflecting back on the original course I did with them, many moons ago, there was this blind acceptance that there was no other way to keep bees, theirs was the only way.
Took me a few years to unlearn their dogma and become a thinking beekeeper.

It's relatively easy to tailor a package of beekeeping to suit what any individual needs. But no-one asks the novice beekeeper the question of what they want. Someone wanting lots of honey vs not are two quite different approaches. As you and Patrick have alluded to ,you don't want to be purchasing pedigree bees that collect honey for fun if you don't want lots of honey.
I do, as my beekeeping has to pay for itself, I don't want to be digging into my own pocket to afford the kit and equipment. As a consequence I now have several OTT pieces of equipment that I can't now do without
That is not to say that I can't also give really good advice to anyone who desires only to keep bees and doesn't want much honey. Alas though, many seem destined to be in that boat as they simply aren't dedicated enough to the craft.

[pingping]

In the article, how does Seeley determine if a colony is more varroa resistant than another? Because there are so many reasons why one colony has a lower count at the end of a season than another.

If he intends to breed on low count alone, how does he eliminate other factors responsible for low varroa and not end up breeding lines with no greater resistance, all things being equal?

If he intends to keep all colonies untreated and unswarmed to the maximum life span of the queen and then only restock from the few survivors at the end of say 3-4 years devastation, that will help but not entirely distinguish genuine resistance. Otherwise continually breeding back in other-factor-limiting varroa counts, nature will probably beat him to it.

Is there a link to the article somewhere?

[Beefens30]

I haven't treated for 7 years. It took 5 years until I didn't lose any bees over winter. I go into winter with 50 hives, I will see how I get on. I hope Seeley carries on with his experiment as 1 or 2 years won't do it justice.

[AdamD]

The beefarmer wants - as far as possible - consistent yields and therefore needs to treat for varroa, without it, the craft would not be viable I would suspect. The hobby beekeeper who has just a couple of hives doesn't want to lose them and so also treats for varroa. There are few in between that - yes some want to try treatment free but new beekeepers who have a go at that will almost certainly lose interest after 2 or 3 years of failing bees and without the skill to help maintian them is destined for misery.

Beefens, Welcome to the forum. How were your losses over the five years and are the colonies that survive relatively productive compared to treated colonies in your area?

[Beefens30]

Thanks Adam. I have 2 market stalls a week so need a good supply of honey. I average 75lb's per hive but still taking ivy honey off at the moment and leave enough on so I dont need to feed. We are in a good foraging location and I know keepers who treat near me take more honey but if I allow for not buying any queens in, only feeding nucs and new hives syrup in Autumn and spring (just fondant at Christmas), not paying for any treatment and just buying hives (poly langstroth swienty's from wynn jones), frames etc and extractor and making everything else it probably works out roughly the same. I had the bee inspector do a spot check in May, he said they were good bees but I did have a bit of sac brood. He suggested treating these with varroa treatment. A friend told me they thought Apha was partly sponsored by manufacturers of varroa treatment so I didn't treat any and am now taking ivy honey off some of the hives that had or have sac brood.

[Beefens30]

Sorry, in answer to number of loses over the years, I probably lost about 10 percent. In the winter of 2018 I lost 3 or 4 out of about 35 hives but these were the ones pushed over by the beast from the east. I think also my losses before 2018 were swarms I had collected and they couldnt cope with no treatment. I originally bred from swarms taken from chimneys the owner said they had been there for 20 years but I cannot be sure of any breaks in those years.

[MickBBKA]

There is a powerful lobby driving towards treatment free, natural beekeeping ( whatever that is ) and non import of bees. Although I am very happy with my locals and don't want their strain messing with I do feel that the needs of all beekeepers need to be considered. The views of all its members need to be reflected in a national organisation like the BBKA and it shouldn't align itself just to one view point, we are all members and deserve equal consideration. IMHO Seeley writes about this varroa topic without implying it was either a good or bad method of varroa control and just reports on the findings of the study which was not his undertaking. beekeepers can make of it what they will.