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General Q&A, Bee chat and only Bee chat please
 #8608  by NigelP
 26 Aug 2020, 20:20
AndrewLD wrote:
26 Aug 2020, 19:01
That is very specific, I think too specific,
Specific and correct. 2-heptanone is the bee alarm pheromone that smells like bananas non of the other bee alarm pheromones smell like bananas.
Bananas do not elicit alarm responses in honey bees.
The very specific molecular "lock and key" events that occur between alarm pheromones and the bees specific receptors for them precludes them activating to something, that to us , only "smells" like 2-Heptanone but isn't. Bit like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, it doesn't work.
 #8610  by huntsman.
 26 Aug 2020, 20:49
Over my head but I do know;

'Time flies like the wind, fruit-flies like a banana.' ;)
 #8611  by AndrewLD
 26 Aug 2020, 21:02
Well I have just watched two You-tube videos of beekeepers debunking the banana myth by wafting bananas at hives......

I am more persuaded by those than chemical forumulae. I'll probably still avoid bananas just as I do anything strong smelling when I attend the hives.
 #8612  by NigelP
 26 Aug 2020, 21:13
AndrewLD wrote:
26 Aug 2020, 21:02
Well I have just watched two You-tube videos of beekeepers debunking the banana myth by wafting bananas at hives......
Good.... another beekeeping myth bites the dust.....Until the next time it resurfaces......
 #9051  by Beeblebrox
 01 Oct 2020, 16:04
NigelP wrote:
26 Aug 2020, 20:20
AndrewLD wrote:
26 Aug 2020, 19:01
That is very specific, I think too specific,
Specific and correct. 2-heptanone is the bee alarm pheromone that smells like bananas non of the other bee alarm pheromones smell like bananas.
Bananas do not elicit alarm responses in honey bees.
The very specific molecular "lock and key" events that occur between alarm pheromones and the bees specific receptors for them precludes them activating to something, that to us , only "smells" like 2-Heptanone but isn't. Bit like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, it doesn't work.
Aha, someone who actually knows what they are talking about rather than echoing something they found on social media. <Bows respectfully>

Yes. Though the alarm pheromone smells like bananas to us, the reverse is not true to the bees, despite what I was told when younger (and told others 'til I found out otherwise)
 #9061  by AndrewLD
 02 Oct 2020, 17:42
Beeblebrox wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 16:04
NigelP wrote:
26 Aug 2020, 20:20
AndrewLD wrote:
26 Aug 2020, 19:01
That is very specific, I think too specific,
Specific and correct. 2-heptanone is the bee alarm pheromone that smells like bananas non of the other bee alarm pheromones smell like bananas.
Bananas do not elicit alarm responses in honey bees.
The very specific molecular "lock and key" events that occur between alarm pheromones and the bees specific receptors for them precludes them activating to something, that to us , only "smells" like 2-Heptanone but isn't. Bit like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, it doesn't work.
Aha, someone who actually knows what they are talking about rather than echoing something they found on social media. <Bows respectfully>

Yes. Though the alarm pheromone smells like bananas to us, the reverse is not true to the bees, despite what I was told when younger (and told others 'til I found out otherwise)
I think I am being quoted a little out of context but I will admit I too thought that bananas mimicked the alarm pheromone. Videos of beekeepers breathing banana at their bees or eating bananas whilst seated between hives convinced me otherwise. I also admit that I am a little biased in favour of beekeepers over scientists.
But I didn't get the idea on social media and I have to say that pitching in with a quote from me weeks after the post with a rather snide dig about social media has a distinct air of insult about it.
 #9064  by AndrewLD
 03 Oct 2020, 09:23
NigelP wrote:
26 Aug 2020, 20:20
AndrewLD wrote:
26 Aug 2020, 19:01
That is very specific, I think too specific,
Specific and correct. 2-heptanone is the bee alarm pheromone that smells like bananas non of the other bee alarm pheromones smell like bananas.
Bananas do not elicit alarm responses in honey bees.
The very specific molecular "lock and key" events that occur between alarm pheromones and the bees specific receptors for them precludes them activating to something, that to us , only "smells" like 2-Heptanone but isn't. Bit like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, it doesn't work.
Now this can of worms has been re-opened perhaps Nigel can shed some light on this;
Lemongrass is said to have chemicals that are similar to the bees Nasonov secretion but obviously is not the same. Yet bees are attracted to it (yes - they are; anyone who puts out a bait hive knows that lemongrass draws them in better than just foundation - or perhaps it's just repeated luck...)
Geraniol was used by scientists at INRA (French institute for agricultural reseach) because of its similar chemical composition to the Nasonov secretion - it definitely attracted increased attention from the Asian Hornet but no interest from my bees when I put it in traps.
So how do these fit with your lock and key explanation?
 #9065  by AdamD
 03 Oct 2020, 10:12
I've tried chucking a banana skin on the top bars of a 'flighty' hive to see if it made any difference to their behaviour - it didn't.
I have also tried a banana with a chalkbrood hive. I can't say there was any significant difference after 'banana treatment'. The only think that seems to work with chalkbrood is to replace the queen.

As for lemongrass oil, I had a bait hive around 100 metres from my field apiary this year; it had some comb and lemongrass in it. On one fine saturday morning, I followed a swarm that flew straight over it and into the distance! It was a virgin queen that flew, leaving the scrubbiest of queencells in the hive that I had missed. :x
 #9066  by AndrewLD
 03 Oct 2020, 12:01
AdamD wrote:
03 Oct 2020, 10:12
As for lemongrass oil, I had a bait hive around 100 metres from my field apiary this year; it had some comb and lemongrass in it. On one fine saturday morning, I followed a swarm that flew straight over it and into the distance! It was a virgin queen that flew, leaving the scrubbiest of queencells in the hive that I had missed. :x
Here's another beekeeping myth, or did I read it on the internet (silly me - I actually fell for the false news that the Americans voted Donald Trump as President)?
Anyway the myth goes that swarming bees cluster close by (within 100m to ensure the queen is present and await reports from scout bees (unless they have already selected a home and even occupied it - something I have observed with bait hives - or did I, might have been after an apiary planning meeting with a good bottle :D )
However, the myth goes on that swarming bees are looking to move away from their previous home and so when they do go they fly off to find a new home some distance away; which is how I get all the swarms from the other beekeepers who aren't doing any swarm control :evil:
So your bait hive was neither here nor there in distance terms??? or the wind was blowing in the wrong direction.....
 #9067  by NigelP
 03 Oct 2020, 15:52
AndrewLD wrote:
03 Oct 2020, 12:01

Anyway the myth goes that swarming bees cluster close by (within 100m to ensure the queen is present and await reports from scout bees (unless they have already selected a home and even occupied it - something I have observed with bait hives - or did I, might have been after an apiary planning meeting with a good bottle :D )
As you say it varies, Seeley has shown that sometimes they fly direct to new scouted abode, sometimes they swarm and stay close until decision is made, sometimes they then fly for miles as I've observed on a few occasions when arriving at a swarm only to watch them fly off and disappear over the horizon. No definitive's.
I've never seen any research that suggests lemon grass is effective as an attractant, although some beekeepers swear by it. I tried it for several years in bait hives and never got a swarm. I have also tried bait hives for several years without it and never got a swarm.....perhaps more to do with where I live than the effectiveness of any additive. Now I don't bother with bait hives. And if every bait hive you use has lemon grass how do you know it was the lemon grass that attracted the swarm?
Swarms do follow routes on their journey. I have friends who inevitably get three to four swarms arriving in their garden every year, with no known beekeepers for miles. Probably more to do with the type of topography in that area that bees are programmed to follow, similar to DCA's.
Evolutionary sensible to not set up camp near the hive you just swarmed from, as too much competition for same resources.