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  • Difference between robbers and new bees on an orientation flight

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General Q&A, Bee chat and only Bee chat please
 #8468  by NigelP
 12 Aug 2020, 09:12
Experience. It can be difficult to be certain. Is it a weak hive? If it is a large hive then robbing is unlikely. Look for bees fighting around the entrance. Look for dead bees inside the hive. Robbers also approach hive with their abdomens raised,,,,but so do orientating bees...If you are not sure reduce the entrance size way down, or make a tunnel entrance that the bees can defend against other bees and wasps.
Steve "invented" this so I'll him give you more details.
 #8469  by cutman
 12 Aug 2020, 09:50
thanks for the answer. I was just wondering if there was a clear sign to distinguish which is which.
In doubt a reduced entrance despite the weather is the safest option. No fighting or increased dead bodies outside the hive. Mind you , the wasps at this time of the year will clear them fast enough.
But I will certainly look for signs of fights inside the hive during the next inspection.

For info this colony was on a 6 frames nuc early July and has been transferred into a 14*12 brood box to handle the population explosion. The laying pattern is strong and compact. Bees are on 8 frames with 6 frames of brood all stages.
Above the brood are 2 supers returned after extraction (end of July) to boost colony stores level.
There was robbing then, as bees wEre trying to get in through the roof vents as well. The entrance was reduced at the time, but as temperatures are quite high, I tend to open the entrance block during the day. Then I'm noticing an increasing flying activity outside the hive .
 #8471  by Chrisbarlow
 12 Aug 2020, 10:20
I have small entrances even in this heat. I have no issues

Something else to indicate robbing is slime around entrance which is honey that the bees are bringing out with them. This is usually evident with heavy robbing
 #8472  by NigelP
 12 Aug 2020, 10:36
cutman wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 09:50

For info this colony was on a 6 frames nuc early July and has been transferred into a 14*12 brood box to handle the population explosion. The laying pattern is strong and compact. Bees are on 8 frames with 6 frames of brood all stages.
That size, it's unlikely to be robbing at the moment.
 #8482  by AndrewLD
 12 Aug 2020, 17:51
You are in the south-east and it's bleeding hot and humid - so expect to see more bees outside. With all this humid hot weather - don't open the hive :D
Orientation is most likely and most obvious in the afternoon with bees running around the landing board and up the front of the hive before launching off and flying in front of the hive - it's happening on one of my hives right now at 1738hrs. It's usually a frenzy for less than an hour and dies down as quickly as it starts.
Robbers are around the hive looking to get in anywhere but the front door. Then they get bold and fly straight at the front trying to con their way past the bouncers ( your guard bees). No landing in front and waiting to be inspected. When robbing is well underway the robbers can become accepted and the guard bees don't recognise them as robbers.
Flight paths can be telling, are they flying across to other hives or in/out and away as you would expect?
You mentioned wasps and I'll now chuck in hornets because they are now out in increasing numbers ( you will of course look out for asian hornets hawking in front of the hive). European hornets tend to come in to the landing board and snatch bees.
Watch carefully, if wasps are getting in past the guards you need to restrict the entrance, if needed right down, but you can try a small sheet of perspex lent up at angle in front of the entrance. The bees quickly learn to go round but the wasps are confused especially if there are small air holes in the perspex right in front of the entrance opening.
The most obvious sign of robbing is fighting on the landing board but note what I said about accepted robbers.

If it is a strong colony and you can see guard bees coming out on the landing board to challenge bees, often coming out and turning to face the hive before coming back to the entrance then that is an active guard force and they will see off robbers and wasps (some will always get past). If what you are looking at is a short duration frenzy as I described (at 1826hrs all is normal) then it is more likely to be orientation
 #8484  by Steve 1972
 12 Aug 2020, 19:08
I have lost one Nuc through robbing and since that sad occasion i have not lost anymore..the signs are now obvious to me but hard to spot unless you see it happening a few times over..no fighting and very few dead bees on the floor below the hive....what gives the game away for me is more inward activity than out going..when i say inward activity i mean masses of bees frantically trying to get in but very few flying out with numbers trying to get in quickly growing..the guard bees seem to give up in the end which basically gives the green light for a free meal and bees from several colonies can target one nuc once this starts..it is like a mad frenzy at the entrance unlike orientation flights where the bees mull around the hive flying in circles for 20 minutes or more..
Wasp robbing is easy to solve but bees robbing another Bee colony is hard to stop..that is why i now move any newly made nucs and nucs into brood boxes well away from my strong colonies..
 #8485  by huntsman.
 12 Aug 2020, 19:17
Hi everyone.

(My first post since the software change a few years back.)

Robbing honeybees on their way out will drop a bit low before gaining height. Kind of like a loaded bomber taking off from an old aircraft carrier.

Foragers are straight 'up and away and those orientating will be facing the hive without entering.
 #8486  by Steve 1972
 12 Aug 2020, 22:15
huntsman. wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 19:17
Hi everyone.

(My first post since the software change a few years back.)

Robbing honeybees on their way out will drop a bit low before gaining height. Kind of like a loaded bomber taking off from an old aircraft carrier.

Foragers are straight 'up and away and those orientating will be facing the hive without entering.
That sounds perfect in theory.. but it is not that simple..to many variables to compare.. but from personal experience i know robbing when i see it..